Church Bandwagon, CHURCH GOVERNANCE & POLICIES, Church Governance or Policy Issues, Extra-Biblical Nonsense

Recent Twittering on Joining or Submitting to Churches

Julie Anne

Agree?  Disagree?  Whatcha think?

Late addition.  I should have looked further

114 thoughts on “Recent Twittering on Joining or Submitting to Churches”

  1. “These dudes really do long for the good old days and I for one am exceedingly glad that men Like Jefferson and Adams made damn sure that they will never get the power they so desperately crave so’s they can return us to the good old days.”

    I agree except when we give government too much power to make too many decisions about over our personal lives……..we start giving up our individual freedoms/choices…and who knows then? HIstory is full of: That would never happen here.

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  2. “Lydia, I’m not exactly sure of the nature of the charge you’re leveling. Are you saying that 95% of Bible translations have it wrong because they are part of the state Church? Even if I were to grant you that, the meaning of “Obey” what do you do with the next part, which was what i was focusing, on, the “submit to them”?”

    Again, I ask you what about all the other passages that negate this idea of authority/submission. We can start with the 58 “one anothers”. You only have one Father, All believers have anointing, Don’t lord it over, etc, etc.

    My point was that “obey” was a horrible word choice from the translators. So why did they choose it in connection with “leader” (note there there is no “elder” in that passage) So who would a “leader” be in the 1st Century context when we know Jesus disdained the “Gentile” structure of hierarchy. And that is the problem. We have incorporated the pagan model of the Greek chain of being into our churches.

    Submit is the same way. It is strictly voluntary and and does not denote an inferior position among believers. It is also not static. That is where it really becomes interesting as when people cannot leave their churches without elder approval.

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  3. RE: Diane’s Kirkland video

    So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.

    Hmm….

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  5. Barnabasintraining said: “So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.”

    Just posted this for someone over at TWW. It comes from the pastor section of 9Marks talking about when a pastor leaves a church. Sounds so odd. I know the Bible uses Shepherd, sheep and wolves, but when these people use the same terms in their pastoral instructions, it sounds like the sheep are a low social class in their kingdom.

    I’m curious, what does the transformation from lowly sheeple to Shepherd look like or were they always a Shepherd in the making even before they knew it? I think, for some of these guys, it’s just a piece of paper from a seminary and poof, you are a Shepherd.

    http://www.9marks.org/journal/prepare-church-next-guy
    6. Clean up your (and your predecessor’s) messes
    Here are a few crucial areas:
    a. Membership: Clean up the membership rolls such that the membership closely aligns with those who regularly attend. The membership rolls (should) represent sheep. Remove wolves as well as you can, and take non-attenders off. Help the new guy get off to a good start by knowing exactly which sheep he is called to shepherd.

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  6. Gary W,

    Did you read the sermon text I gave an address to and if yes, what did you think.

    Also can you stop the name calling, my blog name Q is just a nickname I had as a kid and I am a Christian.

    If I stated something you disagree with why not state what it is rather than name calling.

    Not sure why the blog owner allows it on a blog about spiritual abuse???

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  7. Maybe I am wrong on this one as I haven’t seen in Scriptures where I am to sign a “church document, or covenant” if you will, to become a “member” of an organized church. I also haven’t seen in the Scriptures where the ekklesia, or assembly/congregation formalized an “installation service” to welcome new members, newly elected leaders, or ceremonializing the hiring of a “new pastor,” calling attention to the accolades of man rather than Jesus Christ.

    Does God, our all knowing Father, require us to sign our name on a dotted line so He can keep track of us and how much we give to Him, or is He Mighty enough that He does not need the ways of man to help Him out a alittle bit here and there.

    What happens in churches when the leadership system, including the pastor, lord over those they deem as weaker, lesser, and “not as spiritual as themselves?” What happens in churches where you confide in some of the “leadership network”, only to discover they betrayed your confidence to “the rest of the board”, eventually making its way amongst the rest of the pew sitters and by the time it gets back to you, your original confidence is so distorted and a mockery of a personal truth? What happens when “leadership” gathers information about you only to be used against you when you “start questioning their authority and their so called Biblical teachings?”

    What happens in churches when the leadership/pastorate does NOT exhibit, nor have the character traits listed in the Bible as qualifications to serve in positions of authority? Anotherwords, their very own houses are not in order, yet they expect you to live by a higher standard than even they live. For example, (and this actually happened), the children and household of the pastor/leadership can live together, have extra-marital affairs, rape and pillage, faithfully watch pornography, engage in drunkenness, divorce multiple times, gossip, lie and slander, engage in the occult (drunk in a spirit, receiving channeled messages from voices, visiting the third heaven, etc.)….oh, the sins are legion….and yet, the rest of us are lorded over and held “accountable” to them in living far and above the standards they set for themselves.

    To the reader, you may think the church I attend came out of the “Jonestown” mold, but it is not….it is a Baptist church down the road with pentecostal/charismatic practices, who claims to know more truth than any other, who beat up the sheep with their branding irons of so called doctrines of demons rather than the ways of our LORD.

    And the so called “love” they show you is based solely on:

    1) Signed membership in their church
    2) The amount of submission you show the leadership
    3) The amount of hope, trust, and worship you show the pastor and his special family
    4) The amount of money you give….and they love it when someone “wills their belongings and estate to them!”
    5) The number of times you attend their place of meeting……the office of the “attendance registrar” checks that little box by your name each time you are there so as to keep track of your whereabouts.
    6) The amount of bragging, boasting, and flattery given to the leadership and pastor and the special treatment they receive as a result of their high positions of authority…..and if you do not flatter these people, it is a sign of disobedience to our LORD.
    7) The amount of confidential personal information you hand over to them so they can “advise” you on how to handle “life in general.” (And when you choose to be discerning of all matters involving doctrine and character of individuals, you are labeled unteachable, not submissive, rebellious, having a “Jezebel” spirit (yes, a pastor actually said this), and finally, disobedient to our LORD.
    8) When you become a follower of them, rather than a follower and servant of Jesus Christ.

    So when we stand before Jesus Christ on that great and glorious day of His Second Coming, is He going to walk over to His office files and check and see if we signed that church membership document just to make sure He knows that we are one of His sheep? Or does He already know, without the clicking of a pen, who are His ….those who worship Him in spirit and truth?

    Jesus knows.

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  8. Katy2,
    I’m going to say there is nothing about what you have described going on in this facility has anything to do with worshiping God. God is not being invited into worship in this environment, it is the worship of men. Not one thing that you have listed here is scriptural. The only place that I need my name written is in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

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  9. “RE: Diane’s Kirkland video

    So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.

    Hmm….”

    There are 3 elders listed at Kirkland’s organization. Geoff, his dad and one other. We are to believe they will hold each other accountable when they err. I don’t buy it-how does that work when it’s a family affair?

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  11. Thank-you Julie Anne for allowing me to share here as I have experienced such hurt from these churched people and am in the processing of healing. Please forgive me if I sound bitter or antagonistic in any way, for this is not the purpose I intend. I would rather this be a warning to those involved in such a church system, for where the ways of legalism, favoritism, double mindedness and duality in living practices amongst the leadership occurs, there will be significant brainwashing and abuse.

    Praying for all those “abused” by these religious systems. In Jesus Name.

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