I’ve got a lot of fires burning, so you get to call it. Your turn to sound off whatever is on your heart.
Mark Driscoll made the Seattle news KOMO front page. How long can this last?
Ergun Caner’s 15-year old son committed suicide. I can’t help but remember a conversation I saw on Twitter at the beginning of July with JD Hall, Fred Butler and others as they were rudely going after him. I cannot get it out of my mind which might be part of my funk. This is deja vu for me and I’m so tired of “men of God” acting like bullies.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
@Lydia:
I do not feel that “banging the drum” during this time is appropriate. I agree on that.
So, the word “continue” in my statement was a poor choice of words.
LikeLike
@Lydia
One last comment: You stated “It went a direction it did not need to go…”
I know what happened in this case with J.D. Hall, but I may be ignorant of what all else has gone on in the past here. Perhaps there’s part of the story that I do not know and that’s why we’re seeing things differently now. I’m certainly willing to be educated if you can point me in the right direction.
Again, I’m not trying to fight against you or anyone here. I certainly have a heart and compassion. My comments have not meant to be hurtful to anyone.
Braxton’s suicide is an absolutely terrible tragedy for that family that no one should have to deal with. There’s no doubt about that.
LikeLike
“So, the word “continue” in my statement was a poor choice of words.”
Glad to hear it. I have been quite outspoken concerning charlatans and gurus the last 10 years after what I experienced myself. That includes Rick Warren, Hybels, and others in the mega seeker movement to the charlatan hard hearted Calvinists protecting Driscoll, Mahaney, etc. There is some serious stuff out there like protecting child molesters, ripping people off, etc. It is just now, the Calvinists have the power and are the current evangelical fad. It will pass, too.
But going after someone his teen on twitter takes the prize for evil. Those anti Caner forces really had no else where to go as esculation after esculation. In fact, I think their constant pushing and vitriol over the last few years has actually helped Caner in many ways. I think it has done the opposite of what you guys wanted. Never being a Caner fan concerning his method and teaching (we totally disagree on women) I started to feel for him long before the Braxton tweet situation. I can see why he responded in some of the ways he did to try and get some relief. I mean he lost his big job at Liberty but even that was not enough for you guys. Think of what Braxton has lived through during his tweens and onward. Yet he was targeted by the anti Caner forces. And you seem to be worried a suicide will cover over what you think it is so important people know about Caner. I just do not know what to do with that.
He has not protected child molsters, called Esther a whore, has porno divinations, , driven a church into 70 mill in debt, or many of the nefarious things going on in evangelicalism. Frankly, when I compare him to what many of you have chosen to ignore I am flabbergasted. Why does he continue to be such a cause for folks?
LikeLike
You know one of the big anti Caner forces was Jason Smathers. A convicted felon who served prison time for stealing people’s personal information from AOL and selling it. If you want Caner out of ministry then I want Smathers out of ministry. I mean where else could Smathers work in the real world?
If we are going to clean it up then let’s start with Mohler protecting the child molester protector, Mahaney. Children were molested and abused and told they were just as big of sinners as their molester. Mohler says Mahaney is just disliked because of his strong leadership. It is a shepherding cult. The later this “strong leader” is suddenly ignorant of what he micromanaged for 30 years. Read SGM wikileaks and tell me that is a normal place.
And Mohler agrees with that structure. He wants it for SBC churches and entities.
Children were molested!. It has been proven they knew and did not call the authorities. Not only that but blackmail of Tomzack, etc. Why does MOhler protect and promote such a man?
Does Mohler not care about children who were molested? Is his saving face over Mahaney more important?
See I think you might have your priorities a bit twisted when discussing Georgia Baptists. Mohler is a much bigger threat concerning what he has broguht into the SBC and spent money on: Mahaney and Driscoll. Their DNA has been permeating SBTS and the larger SBC for many years now. And Piper, too, with his national disasters from God punishing us. And encouraging women to submit to abusers.
LikeLike
“Frankly, when I compare him to what many of you have chosen to ignore I am flabbergasted.”
I’m honestly confused by this. I haven’t chosen to ignore anything. You are putting me in a camp with people that I don’t live with. I mentioned Caner because this post related to Caner, but it doesn’t mean I give a pass to those other people.
I read SSB, TWW, FBC Jax, Wade Burleson, Stuff Fundies Like, and others. I’m against abuse and I’m against people who twist the message of Christ for their own gain.
I’m against Mohler, Mahaney, Chuck O’Neal, Tony Miano, Paige Patterson (and the fundamentalist resurgence), Mark Driscoll, SGM, child abuse, cover-ups, spiritual abuse, complementarian theology, indepdendent baptist church “Man o’ God” nonsense, etc. I could add many more to the list (unfortunately).
I’m against those that twist and harm the name of Christ and I don’t care who they are or what “camp” they come from.
Honestly, I don’t know how it was assumed that I didn’t care about those people.
LikeLike
JPow, Lets just say I thought your very first comment was telling in its focus. I guess it has given me a perception that is hard to shake—because a teen— a precious human being….. was cyberbullied by an SBC pastor and later committed suicide. yet, folks seem scared to death we will forgot what his dad did and are quick to say the cyber bullying cannot be proven to be linked. How can it be proven it wasn’t? Why is that your all’s focus?
I just find that inappropriate and reprehensible. HIs child just committed suicide and here is your first comment here. Just you were just sounding off but seriously? This was your focus?
“he tenacity with which some attack Caner may be related to the Calvinism issue, but to imply that Calvinism is the only reason Caner stays in the blogs is way off base.
He is a proven liar, charlatan, and bully (in his use of the U.S. court system). So, when a past SBC president like Johnny Hunt has him come speak at his mega church and introduces him as a wonderful man of God, it’s a big deal. It’s newsworthy how (like CJ Mahaney but for different reasons) the “big wigs” at the SBC stand behind Caner all along the way. Thanks to their support, Caner can unapologetically truck right along making a fine living off of the tithe payers of the SBC via love offerings and his pay from Brewton Parker College (sponsored by the Georgia Baptist convention).
And the people on the outside look at the hypocrisy, the double-standard for leaders, and denial of truth and think, “I want no part of that.” That’s why it’s a big deal, and that has nothing to do with neo-Calvinism.
It’s worth noting that Caner has his own crew of loyal defenders to combat J.D. Hall, etc. They’re Peter Lumpkins, C.B. Scott, and others, and they use many of the same absurd tactics via their blogs as well. Caner gave at least a few of them new jobs when he was hired at Brewton Parker…I guess as a reward for their loyalty.
As a side note, I’m on my way to being Methodist these days (Goodbye SBC!) so I’m almost completely the opposite (in some sense) of a Calvinist.
In my view, the issues with Caner presented on at least some of the blogs have merit because they get at the heart of several of the big issues in evangelical Christianity today: the “celebrity” mindset that gives rise to leaders who can draw a crowd but may not reflect Christian character, the double-standards for leaders and followers, the lack of accountability by those in a position to do so, the lack of due diligence (in Caner’s original story) and flat out denial of truth by many of the big players when the truth came out.
Those issues have nothing to do with Calvinism.
”
His kid just committed suicide and your goal was to list his sins here. Sorry, I should have not engaged as long as I did. It hurts my heart.
LikeLike
Fair enough, Lydia. I see what you’re saying about how my first comment might have left the wrong impression. My intent was not to be insensitive, but I can see that my original comment shoud’ve been more carefully and thoughtfully phrased in light of the events.
I hope you know that the impression you got from that comment is not an accurate representation of my overall heart in the matter.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain.
LikeLike
J Pow, again, thanks for being the voice of reason. And for demonstrating kindness, patience, and humility in these discussions. Some people could learn a lot from you in how to interact with people they disagree with. There are those who are so consumed with hatred for certain theological perspectives that they will support anyone who shares their sentiments and will be hostile toward anyone who does not join them.
LikeLike
a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; }
a.primaryactionlink:link, a.primaryactionlink:visited { background-color: #2585B2; color: #fff; } a.primaryactionlink:hover, a.primaryactionlink:active { background-color: #11729E !important; color: #fff !important; }
/* @media only screen and (max-device-width: 480px) { .post { min-width: 700px !important; } } */ WordPress.com
J Pow, what vested interest do the Calvinists have in this? He ends not want any thing to do with them. They are wasting their time and energy on badgering anyone not wanting to be a Calvinist. Caners lies is not the issue. He was called out long ago on that. Its common knowledge. What Caner does is between his congregation and him. Calvinists are wanting him to repent to them. He wont. Move on.– Original Message –From: comment-reply@wordpress.comSent: 08/06/2014 07:54 amTo: chapmaned24@yahoo.comSubject: [New comment] Sound Off on Spiritual Sounding Board J Pow commented: “@Ed
I don’t feel you’re treating me fairly here. It seems that the assumption from you is that if I don’t agree with you that E. Caner’s past actions were no big deal, then I’m standing proudly with J.D. Hall and his defenders.
That’s simply not ”
LikeLike
Ed – Something’s funky with your last comment. Feel free to send me what you want it to look like and I’ll replace it.
LikeLike
Julie Anne commented:
JA, typing on my phone and phone picks words automatically some times. Dont know which one. Got to wait til i get home.
JA note: Ed, I’m sending you a copy of what this comment looked like before I cleaned it up. Your phone does not like my blog. That’s all I’ve got to say. lol
LikeLike
OK, so…what I was saying is directed to J Pow.
What vested interest do the Calvinists have in this? Caner is a Baptist. He doesn’t want to be a Calvinist. Caner wants nothing to do with the Calvinists. Nothing.
It’s the Calvinists that are badgering Caner. Why are THEY badgering Caner, when Caner wants nothing to do with them?
Do you see my repeated question here? Calvinists want Caner to repent TO THEM. Well, he isn’t going to, so my advice is to move on.
But they won’t. WHY? They are wasting their time and effort and energy on Caner. They focus on Caner like it’s an obsession. Everyone knows that Caner lied. But I am NOT convinced that is the REAL issue here.
I think that the REAL issue is that Calvinism is being FORCED DOWN BAPTISTS THROATS, and many Baptists want nothing to do with Calvinism, and it JUST SO HAPPENS that Caner is a Baptist IN A POSITION that matters to the Calvinists, as he is a wedge in the Calvin takeover, and they are using his lies as a means to force an issue. Well, Ergun Caner is not biting. I do not for a moment think that Caners lies has anything to do with any of this. It’s Calvinism being a bully to Caner, and his family…no different than the MOB way of doing things…without the tommy gun.
That’s my view. So, my advice…move on…everyone knows Caner lied. Big deal! MOVE ON. Who hasn’t lied? MOVE ON.
Ed
LikeLike
Sadly, there are many within the church who believe they are “god’s police force.” Yes, these men and women lurk around the church buildings pointing out other peoples “sins” yet ignoring their own specks trying to kill the faith of their victims, they travel around the countryside spying on their neighbors and friends looking for wrong doers, they are pretend confidants who slither like snakes into people’s homes destroying marriages, breaking up families, and killing friendships….yes, they are the religious of our day, those in church leadership who profess themselves to be “spiritually elite; more Christian than the rest of us lower pew people…….
These types of people are so busy policing the affairs of others that their own homes are a mess….far easier to point out the “sins”, the “mistakes”, and the misgivings of others all the while the rot of sin plagues their own lives and households. I am so tired of the churches’ police force and long to see a day where I sit in church and hear the humility of man’s voices and see the repentant tears of our own sins.
Never been in a church like that yet….all I hear is this “I am so proud of my daughter or son”; “I am so proud I did this or that”; “I am so proud of our community, our church, our country”; “I am so proud that I don’t do anything wrong”…..let’s face it…..we’re all so busy being proud, we don’t have time for the One who calls us to a life of repentance, self denial and love through Him. Is our pride really from God, our Father?
One day, Jesus will come again, His Second Coming….will we then be in a position to be “so proud?” No, we won’t.
LikeLike
Just another quick note…..no surprise here…..the pulpits in this country are filled with abusive, narcissistic pastors in leadership positions who desire to hear their own voices and follow their own ways rather than the One they are supposed to be following. I sat under an abusive pastor for years hearing his proud rhetoric until he was caught in his own sexual sin with other women! May Jesus forgive us for making His house out to be a whorehouse which is what much of the western church has become. If Jesus came back to His church today, I dare say, the religious would crucify Him all over again.
I am just sick about what so called Christianity has become here in the west, just sick to my stomach.
LikeLike
Welcome Katy!
Admin note first – I added the 2 to your name because we have another Katy here. If you’d like a use something else, please let me know.
I agree with you. Your second comment especially made me think of the happenings at Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll yesterday. How the narcissistic leader has brainwashed his elder board so well that they voted to keep him on despite unbelievable credible evidence to show he is unfit for ministry.
LikeLike
Hi Julie Annel I appreciate your warm welcome and Katy2 is just fine with me. My second comment came from my experience in a small town church, not a mega church system where the pastor/leadership and many within the congregation support the false apostate religion of gnosticism, where experience and feeling trump the Word of God. So when a born again believer seeks to discover God’s truth through His Word rather than the throne room of man’s wicked hearts, then you will be abused from the pulpit, lied about from the pulpiteers, and all of that “love” and “acceptance” you were given when you first arrived, some may choose to call this “an academy award winning acting session”, will disingetrate before your very eyes and the teeth and tongues turn into sharp spears and arrows. You will be abused by this system if you question the dreams, the visions, and the lying signs and wonders…..this is the fruit of charismatic/pentecostalism combined with legalism…and it hurts. Perhaps it is time these “discernment” preachers GROW UP!
Sorry to sound off. I am still in the healing process as Jesus heals me through His precious Words. Thanks for listening.
Katy2
Mod note: Katy, okay go ahead and use Katy2 as your user name and soon Word Press will “recognize” you and your posts won’t be moderated. Because I changed it manually, I’m not sure if Word Press will accept Katy2 yet, so it may take one more time 🙂 We’ll get it!
LikeLike
We should feel sorry for “Butch” Caner, he was cuckolded by his wife.
LikeLike