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Well-known homeschooling moms Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald comment regarding the “victim” word with regard to the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips lawsuit.
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Doug Wilson comments as follows regarding Doug Phillips’s sexual sins against Lourdes Torres-Manteufel:
(Trigger warning for survivors of victimization by sexual abuse or assault, and/or spiritual abuse.) There has been a heated discussion at Doug Wilson’s blog on an article entitled Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum.
Wilson discusses why he thinks Lourdes Torres-Manteufel should not be called a “victim,” that it is prejudging the case to do so, especially because she was an adult when the sexual incidences occurred.
Here is this classic response from Wilson – someone who has no clue as to how sexual abuse victims respond:
But if his attentions were entirely unwelcome to her, and she was freaked out by the creepster, then we have to ask why she wasn’t down the road at the first opportunity — that night or the next morning — with Doug Phillips receiving notification of her opinion of what transpired via the sound of sirens. That’s not what happened, on anyone’s account, and so I don’t think we should identify her as a victim.
Presently there are 163 comments. I found the comments that affirmed Wilson’s stance repulsive – just as repulsive as this: The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of Serial Pedophile.
I think what was most infuriating to me were the comments from well-known women who are part of Christian Patriarchy Movement. Let’s start with Kelly Crawford. In a few days, she will be speaking fairly near me at a homeschooling conference. Look at the lineup of Patriarchs: Ken Ham, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Marshall Foster. Doing a simple Google search of Doug Phillips’ name with any one of these men will yield multiple results and their connections together in “ministry” work.
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I couldn’t find much of a bio on Kelly. She is a homeschooling mom of 10. She is a speaker and blogger who once had Vision Forum affiliate ads on her blog’s sidebar. Let’s read what she has to say on Lourdes as “victim”:
Kelly Crawford
April 18, 2014 at 2:58 pm
And finally, I breathe a big sigh of “amen” for the first, that I’ve read, of real discernment over the situation, and a wise call to hold adults responsible instead of perpetuating a “victim” culture. [Emphasis added.]
Since the first pieces started popping up on the scandal, I’m saying, “why is she a victim?” We are talking, by the way, about a confident, assertive young woman and *nothing* like the mousy allusions I’ve read. Don’t ask me how I know.
“We cannot accuse Vision Forum of treating all women like little girls, and then turn around and treat all women as little girls who can’t be expected to say no to a cad at Vision Forum.” [JA note: This sentence she quotes is from Doug Wilson’s article.]
I can’t thank you enough for saying this.
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Here are two more comments on Doug Wilson’s article from another well-known woman in Christian Patriarchy Movement, Stacy McDonald. (Incidentally, this week her husband, Teaching Elder – another way of saying “pastor” in family-integrated churches – James McDonald has jumped on the popular defend-the-Patriarchy bandwagon with his own article, The “P” Word.)
Stacy McDonald
April 18, 2014 at 3:51 pm
Thank you, Pastor Wilson! You nailed it! I’ve tried to say the same thing and was accused of not having sympathy for the “victim,” which no one can prove she was at this point.
However, I absolutely DO have sympathy for the fact that she was used by a man in power – a man she had respected and revered. She was seduced into a sinful relationship by a “religious” man who represented godliness to her. I agree there is no excuse.
She said she was told that he would marry her. She said she was told that his wife would die soon and they could be together. Sickening. She said she was in love him. Why would these words have even been significant unless she felt deceived by his promises – deceived into going along with it in some way? And then realized it was never going to happen – she was being used.
Any time an insecure young woman is cajoled into a sexual relationship by a man – especially a married man, she is being used and taken advantage of. The impact is multiplied when “religion” is involved.
But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar. Or perhaps an intern to the president…
That is part of the reason men are called to protect women, which makes this disgraceful thing all the more tragic.
I realize that the fact he was a Christian leader compounds the influence he had over her emotionally, but she still owns her own sin. And I still maintain that the truest victims here are his wife and children. [Emphasis added.]
And that says nothing of the public spectacle it’s become inside and outside the church or the smug satisfaction oozing from every anti-patriarchy blog out there.
Thank you again.
“By this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.” (2 Samuel 12:14)
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More from Stacy McDonald:
April 19, 2014 at 9:33 am
I guess I’m confused as to how asking for $10 million dollars from him and his victimized family is a cry for help. And, if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough? Besides, “everyone” is not going to believe her anyway.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).
I think if it were me, trying the case in the court of public opinion would hardly be satisfying anyway. Everything decently and in order. Isn’t that part of why we are Presbyterian? This is chaos.
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Ok, a lot of people reading articles here at Spiritual Sounding Board are connected with the Torres-Manteufel versus Phillips lawsuit. This issue of how the public views Lourdes Torres-Manteufel is important.
These two ladies – Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald – are highly respected in Christian Homeschooling networks, so people who adhere to Patriarchy will be inclined to follow their voices.
- What are your thoughts on their words?
- What do you see in their comments?
- Is Patriarchy a safe environment for women who’ve been sexually violated?
Try putting yourself in Lourdes’ shoes and consider taking a look at the entire Doug Wilson article for yourself – Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum – and the range of comments there. (Repeat: Trigger warning for survivors of abuse.) What words of support and encouragement would you have for Lourdes here, in response to the comments about her there?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Lydia,
You have a more grasping realization of TULIP more than the Calvinist do.
My former Pastor embraced some kind of Reformed Theology that progressed into something more intense throughout his tenure as he was a Andersonville Theological Seminary (Camilla, Georgia) correspondent student while fine tuning his abusive Methodology. He doesn’t have where he received his former training on his resume’, but I think he took some correspondent courses from a Seminary in Louisville.
He also carried a deep arrogant southern swagger of anger and prejudice of :”Northerners”. My son-in-law is from Virginia though most Southerners don’t carry that swagger some still do, going back to the Civil War..
I hate to geographically isolate Calvinism,Seminaries but it seems more prevalent south of the Mason Dixon Line and East of the Mississippi, but they have expanded.
I suggested to my former Pastor that I thought he had Catholic background, because of his minimal redemption in his Sin Centered Methodology that focused on guilt, doubt and works and even going so far to constantly remind the church “they could be doing everything right and still not be saved” and then fail to explain how one could be saved.
I then openly suggested than it was comparable to my Catholic upbringing where assurance of salvation was never taught.
The Catholics also emphasized original sin, inherited from Adam. Born Guilty by affiliation is something I can see a Calvinist emphasizing.
My understanding of feminism is a work in progress. I can see how abuse and sin against women trigger movements to ignite. I just struggle with the secular aspect of any movement if they fail to make Jesus the center of their organization, which may include certain “Hyper Calvinist Churches”.(I struggle with any male or female that support unlimited abortion, because I don’t think it honors Jesus)
Further more, the list of names Julie Anne mentions above looks like they belong in the who’s who of Calvinian Theology. You also seem to focus on the same thing I focus on which is “Where are they getting Indoctrinated and who is teaching them to embrace an abusive Methodology?” I have considered my former pastor could be part of the YRR movement.
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The exchange between Wilson and Terri is really funny and this CREC meme guy took off on that exchange (http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vision-forum-and-a-season-of-meditation.html).
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I have one good thing to say about Doug Wilson. He allows comments on his blog that are contrary to his.
Granted, he may feed of the controversy and attention. But at least he allows for the conversation.
The same cannot be said of many of TGC and T$G. They can’t handle the heat so keep everyone out of the kitchen.
Doug W. at least lets people who disagree into his kitchen, at least for a while.
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JA,
I saw that this morning and cracked up. One of the best comments yet.
What is CREC Memes?
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Teresa, it’s a website that pokes fun at CREC and their culture (of which Doug Wilson is part of). He takes a phrase and posts it with hilarious pictures. He also goes beyond CREC and pokes fun at others who share similar ideologies (patriarchy). The guy has a great sense of humor.
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That’s very true, Mara.
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Thanks Marsha!
Boy oh boy is the subject of forgiveness a hot button with me. It is the most misunderstood concept out there in Christendom. We have turned it on it’s head. I spent a lot of time on this one. The problem is all the proof texting on it.
I believe it is because we don’t understand it.
First and foremost forgiveness is giving up our right to revenge. Revenge is not justice. Forgiveness does not mean instant fellowship or even reconciliation.
In fact, if we are honest about what Jesus taught then we have to admit there is a “condition” to salvation. it is Repentence. And we don’t even understand what that means. Metanoia is a “from…..to” metaphor. because of that lack of understanding we are no different than the demons who “believe” in God. I like how Paul Dohse describes it. We “remember” the cross but we LIVE in the resurrection. New Life. New Creature in Christ. Growing in Holiness or we won’t see God.
Metanoia is not really understood. most think it means “I am sorry”. It doesn’t. The Greek prep “meta” in Koine means ” From……to”. The second part is related to “nous” a word that is relating the “core of ones being” So the word to a 1st Century person would have communicated a “from….to movement in the inner person. A metamorphosis.
In other words, the truly repentant person would insist upon taking the consequences for their sin.
If only we understood this we would not attend unrepentant child molester funerals where the preacher is talking about his being in paradise because he said he loved Jesus. The preacher would not dare because he would have no way of knowing. But because the molester said sorry and went to church or said a sinners prayer, the preacher assumes. The preacher speaks for God. (Which is what that commandment is really talking about and quite dangerous, imo)
What so many Christians are really saying is that we should forgo consequences with forgiveness. That is what they really mean if they are honest. And this subject is tied to the wrong ideas about total depravity. And the whole industry around “Oh we are all just sinners saved by grace” No we are not. We were bought with a price! we do not have lifestyles of sin. (1 John) And people have an ingrained understanding that we are “born sinners”. No. We are born into a corrupted world and corrupted bodes that die and we have an inclination to sin.
And why they ignore all the “lists” written to “believers” in the early church listing things that will keep them from inheriting eternal life, I will never understand.
My guess is because so many Christians believe they CAN’T be blameless or righteous. They have been sold a bill of goods about what it means to live the Kingdom now.
I give up the right to avenge the evil done to me. I will seek justice, though and for others who have been abused, wronged. Hebrews 10 is instructive on this, too.
Oh there is so much more…..there are no sound bite answers. So much is wrapped up in this. Understanding of what the “kingdom of God” means. It is not about heaven. It is now!
Here is my bottomline and I am often accused of being hateful. But long time professing believers do NOT hurt and abuse others. They can’t. Lets say they do something cruel. They would not be able to live with themselves until they fixed it in any way they can.
How on earth can we be the light of the world with any other understanding?
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I forgot my friend Argo’s quote that I love:
Forgiveness is good, but never having to forgive is even better. For when there is no violation of humanity, then there is no need for forgiveness.
http://unreformingtheology.com/
Use it guys next time someone trots out the forgiveness card. Get the focus back on what was done and the person who did it. We only enable evil that will be done to others when we rush to let them off the hook with easy believism. The perps soul is at stake, too.
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Mark, Most of the Southern slave owners were some form of Calvinism. Of course few people in the South owned slaves but you get the picture. If you ever get a chance read Broaddus’ bio of Boyce. To hear him explain how godly Boyce was to support slavery is quite an education. SBTS has an undergrad school named after Boyce.
Apartheid was instituted by Dutch Calvinists. The list goes on and on.
Just another view on so called feminist issues like abortion, etc. I have really come to another view about all of it. yes, I am pro life. And was involved in the movement back in the early 90’s.
I just do not see that trying to change the laws will do anything but divide people and make them even more staunch. Abortions have actually dropped after the advent of 3D imaging. There were 5 busy abortion mills in my city and now there is 1. And right now African Americans are having more than anyone. So not sure the left gets it either. But Roe is going NO where. I wish it was out of the political arena totally. I wish the right wing would stop and the left wing, too. Government wants to tell me how much money I can have, how to live, what I can eat, what doctor I can have, etc, etc,.
When did adult Americans stop being grown ups? Well, it has been coming for a long time.
In fact, I would love to see social issues not be the issue on presidential elections. Those should be state/local issues if they must be political issues. I go back to the Constitution on this one. I would like for government to get out of the business of micromanaging us. We get it at church now, too. Our entire society is marching toward collectivism which must have an oligarchy to survive as such. It is uncanny how the church mirrors the larger society on this.
I don’t know. If that is feminism then I am guilty! I just think both sides are rabid. If yu don’t embrace homosexuality then you want to bully them or worse: you hate them The rhetoric from both sides kills any dialogue and any understanding. I am one of those people who think it is sin because not God’s intention but I would never try to block civil marriage. Is that feminist thinking? I don’t know. I think it is wise considering our form of government. We are not a theocracy, thankfully.
We cannot be salt and light when we are demanding our version of morality at the ballot box. it makes the whole point moot. Jesus was all for a composite society because that is where salt and light have the most influence!
I really think God is shaking His head about us taking so long to get rid of church state mentality thinking and get on with the business of living the kingdom now.
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Oh Mark I want to say one more thing concerning women. I think we miss the truth that Satan has a particular hate for women. A woman was to bring forth the Messiah, the Savior of the world. We see what happens early on with women being oppressed. We read the law and think God cruel toward women when we don’t understand the pagan backdrop and those laws were protecting women! Just one example, a woman had a longer waiting period for sex after having a daughter. Why? It makes sense. It was patriarchy. The man wanted a son and would want to try for another one right away. The woman needed time to bond with her daughter and heal. With a son, the husband left her alone longer.
There are many examples of how we read the OT wrong forgetting that the entire thing is juxtaposed against a pagan and very patriarchal culture.
It goes back to Gen 3 and a total misunderstanding of Teshuqa. It is now translated as ‘desire’ (thanks to a monk named Pagnino in 1300’s) but it was originally translated as “turning”. The implication is that Eve would “turn” to
Adam instead of God. And because she would do this, Adam would rule over her
That says it all. But it is taught as the opposite. Eve wants to rule over Adam so the men are off the hook for cruelty and oppression all through the OT. Nope. Satan is the prince of this world and he hates women to a degree that is astonishing. I just wish more men would stop helping him.
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Lydia,
I tend to agree with you about social issues about Gov’t staying out of our business..
I have switched from being a Democrat in my youth to being a Republican when they proclaimed they didn’t like big Gov’t. But after Reagan’s term ended, Pubs and Dems pretty much have the same big Gov’t Ideology so I switched to Libertarian views but I think their Constitutional views have serious obstacles to overcome. (mainly Pubs and Dems)
Thank You for being helpful. I will add that the SBC took over 120 years to apologize to African Americans for spiritual and blatant mistreatment.
My son-in-law from Virginia never considered how racist many southerners still are toward blacks. But it is subtle in that Southerners have a problem with dealing with racial and geographical arrogance and in some Calvinian situations, spiritual arrogance.
But it shouldn’t surprise us, Race/Gender prejudice has been going on since creation and still continues world-wide to this day…
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lydiasellerofpurple,
Whew! I feel much better now! LOL! Yes – not taking revenge on the one who hurt you. Doesn’t necessarily mean restored to fellowship – check. Forgiveness doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences for the offender – check.
One thing I found for me was that forgiving allowed me to live in response to God and my needs. I remember realizing at some point almost every decision I was making was based on what I thought about my abuser. I don’t know how to explain it, just that almost everything I did was in response to that abuse: making good grades, where I went to college, choosing where to live, how to dress, etc. (Like Cindy K, I didn’t turn to drugs to self-medicate, I turned to perfectionism in school and sports and behavior. Good think I was good at those things, eh? 😉 )
When I forgave, I was finally able to decide for myself and what I truly wanted and what God wanted for me, not in response to the abuse. And, it was a very gradual process, a step at a time. And sometimes I found the need to rework through it in different circumstances.
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“My son-in-law from Virginia never considered how racist many southerners still are toward blacks. But it is subtle in that Southerners have a problem with dealing with racial and geographical arrogance and in some Calvinian situations, spiritual arrogance.
Well so much has changed with people being so transient in the bigger cities. The South is full of Northerners who came to the Sun Belt in the 80’s for jobs.
My Southern roots: My mom’s ancestors were mostly Methodist and were staunch abolitionists including women who were advocating for voting rights, etc. . My father’s grandmother was raised on a plantation that had slaves — she had a black servant doing her hair and dressing her every morning. But then she married a man whose family went broke buying slaves and freeing them. The archives still exist because they were buying “property”. And the deeds to “freedom” were documented. This was before the civil war in the 1850’s. Many took their name. During the war many were led across the Ohio on the underground rr they were a part of. it Deeds. Good deeds. Putting your money where your beliefs are. I think that is grand. I am proud they were rebels in the midst of so much evil.
So it is a hodge podge. I was raised SBC and my first SS teacher at age 6 was an African American women who was precious. I grew up in integrated churches and I was in quite a few due to my mom’s work. Church is actually more segregated now than it was when I was a kid.
I think “apologies” are meaningless .And that angle is getting worse. It is our deeds that set us apart in these matters. I find it a bit amusing the apology came when SBC churches were more segregated than ever!
When the South did not win, there was a move away from the determinism of Calvinism in the SBC. it is an interesting history. Over the next 100 years, it barely made a peep in the SBC. It started making a comeback in the 70’s and we see the fruit of that today.
If you want to read a book by one of the men who started that comeback look for Ernest Reisingers “Quiet Revolution”. It is online free at Founders.org. The title says it all. It has been a “stealth” movement to take the SBC back to it’s “founding”. Pay close attention to chapter 4. it is an outline of how to take over a church without them knowing it. It worked. Al Mohler is proof.
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“One thing I found for me was that forgiving allowed me to live in response to God and my needs. I remember realizing at some point almost every decision I was making was based on what I thought about my abuser. I don’t know how to explain it, just that almost everything I did was in response to that abuse: making good grades, where I went to college, choosing where to live, how to dress, etc. (Like Cindy K, I didn’t turn to drugs to self-medicate, I turned to perfectionism in school and sports and behavior. Good think I was good at those things, eh? 😉 ) ”
Yes! They are basically running your life for you. it is like you can make up for it or something. Or those good things would make you look right in front of others so you would not look bad or something.
“When I forgave, I was finally able to decide for myself and what I truly wanted and what God wanted for me, not in response to the abuse. And, it was a very gradual process, a step at a time. And sometimes I found the need to rework through it in different circumstances.”
Yes and it was YOUR decision. It cannot be someone else telling you to forgive. it cannot be a “doctrine” of forgiveness. It is amazing how helpful it is when people simply say, that was evil and wrong. But so few will! They don’t want to know so they shoot the messenger.
And the perp should not be let off the hook if at all possible. Forgiveness does not mean you do not speak of negative truths that were done to you. You have the right to speak of it for the rest of your life if you want. IF you want.
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Lydia,
It almost happened in our church. We have certain members who were mentored by our former pastor. They have Mohler, Piper, Driscoll and Reformed International Theological Seminary pasted on their Facebook.
He doesn’t embrace abusive tactics but still is a TULIP Calvinist.
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“Whew! I feel much better now! LOL! Yes – not taking revenge on the one who hurt you. Doesn’t necessarily mean restored to fellowship – check. Forgiveness doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences for the offender – check.”
Oh, and something else. Reporting criminal behavior is not seeking revenge. It seeks to protect society (future victims) and justice for the victim. Suing for damages someone who has used you in a nefarious way is not seeking revenge either. It is NOT trivial as 1 Corinthian 6 is discussing, That also seeks to protect society from cons, frauds and creeps and bring some justice to the victim in form of payment.
I can only hope Lourdes wins and is awarded something very significant. It won’t give her the years back that evil man has stolen but it will make the remaining years more comfortable. And it will serve as a warning to other DP types out there.
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I don’t have a problem with TULIP, so long as it is put into perspective as a position statement that defends God’s sovereignty in the context in which it was intended: a position statement against the RCC statement that put man on equal standing with God. When you take those ideas that make a statement about how sinners make it into heaven (taking the focus off an aspect of God and placing it on man), the whole thing falls apart. It is also no lens for how to live the Christian life, apart from realizing that we are sinners who cannot save ourselves and needed a sinless God to pay the price for us. It’s not about benchmarking one Christian to prove that he/she is better or more spiritual or more orthodox than another.
That’s where it becomes an adventure in existentialism instead of Biblical theism that defends God’s sovereign power.
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Lydia: There is someone requesting to contact you by e-mail. If you’d like to contact me privately, I can arrange the connection. Thanks! (spiritualsb@gmail.com)
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Cindy K
Not sure when the book of TULIP was invented but I would never have mentioned it in this thread if Julie Anne didn’t have what appears to be a list of “Who’s Who” of modern Calvinism of her description in the “lineup of Patriarchs” Ken Ham RC Sproul Jr., Scott Brown, Israel Wayne and Marshall Foster.
(I didn’t see Piper or Driscoll’s name in that lineup, but you get the idea)
These guys through the use of their own interpretation from their indoctrination in Seminary (or Reformed churches) of TULIP is what drives their Methodology. Julie Anne has pointed out several times to me, Hyper-Calvinist aren’t the only ones practicing Spiritual Abuse and reckless biblical interpretations.
Much of the “Doctrinal” and “Patriarchy” abuse being reported in this thread however, has been porportionally adminstered mostly by the Hyper Calvinist who use TULIP to authenticate their Methodology.
If I remember Julie Anne’s former pastor may be Hyper-Calvinist and I think he may have been somewhat “Stealth” in his attempt to indoctrinate his church with his brand of Reformed Theology, as I don’t think she knew he was “Reformed” until after she started her orginal “Survivors” blog. Some of what she experienced has certain similarities, (like the bullying and shunning) to what my former Pastor did to our church.
I also want to thank those who have discussed modern feminism with me.
In 1980 our nation was in a deep recession so I moved to a rural village in Alaska to work in a cannery at the age of 20. I grew up in Nor-Cal and Eastern Wa. during turbulent times of the late ’60’s and into the ’70’s. In the Alaska village at that time the only access to the outside world was through a one channel tape delayed television and because of that I rarely watched TV after getting to Alaska.
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Mark, I knew that BGBC liked Calvin. I understood only bits and pieces what that meant. I kind of blew Calvin off as another “celebrity” person like John MacArthur – someone whom people liked, not understanding how prevalent it was as a system of doctrine. I knew Arminianism conflicted with Calvinism.
I always thought the Bible was sufficient and didn’t understand all the hype with all of the extra stuff like the focus on Calvin, focus in Young Earth Creationism, etc.
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Julie Anne, Thank you. We all have our Bibles. Why we need all of these different celebs telling us how and what to believe never did set well with me.
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So now what so we do? We get “study bibles.” Bibles that have another name on the cover in addition to “Holy Bible.” And guess what? In that study Bible you get to read a man’s interpretation.
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Well that is a conundrum, JA. I suppose we need to put on our filters.
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Julie Anne,
For the first 51 years of my life Calvinism was a none issue. From what I gather it is a resurgence of various movements like YRR and Patriarchy spreading their abusive Stealth Calvinist interpretations that provided a foot-hold in unsuspecting churches.
Though Calvinism may have been around, their Methodology has become more toxic in recent history. Many of these guys are being indoctrinated to be abusive and as a result, abuse aggressively expanded into the late 1990’s and into the 2000’s.
(I get the fact that abuse may be a natural fit to these guys, so aggressively force feeding TULIP, stimulates their ego)
In an SBC tomorrow blog, it is reported that SBC Seminiaries were purposely replacing Non-Calvinian Professors with Sin Centered Calvinist professors.
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This is peripheral to the topic at hand, but I am in contact with a secular journalist who is looking for people who had a bad experience with Biblical (non-clinical/nouthetic) counseling. If you feel comfortable sharing your experience with them, could contact me via the tab at the top of my blog?
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Following up on the Christian Heritage conference last weekend, their posted attendance was 3220, compared to last year’s almost 3600. (Of course, I don’t know how many new babies are in that figure.) Imagine Ken Ham was the main draw, the only speaker that was mentioned to me by some who attended.
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JA, I have looked in vain on this site for your email. I am assuming it is not the forum email? I am not the sharpest Crayola in the box, either;
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Everyone! All together now: DUH LYDIA. Yep it was in the comment. trying to do this while doing too many other things.
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Spiritualsb@gmail.com
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Forum email comes to me, too. 🙂
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It’s interesting that Stacy describes a victim but is opposed to using the word “victim.” A woman cajoled into a sexual relationship through deceit by someone in power– all things that Stacy seems to acknowledge– is a victim.
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You are absolutely right, Sara.
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Kelly is a friend and at the time she said that, I think few were aware for sure that Lourdes was a victim. I didn’t even know, and I’d followed the case pretty closely; what I did NOT know was that Lourdes was one of the young women lauded by the Botkin girls in their documentary!! (She’s still Facebook friends with them so I hope that’s a sign she ultimately at least got some support). Wilson is a disgusting boar with no respect from me and James Mcdonald really has no shame in his pitiful attempt at self-aggrandizing.
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Kelly should not have spoken about something she did not know.
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