***
The moral scandal of mega-church pastor Bob Coy leads others to come forward to tell their personal stories of corruption and abuse among the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches.
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You may have heard of the recent scandal by Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale Pastor Bob Coy. The church elders called a special church meeting on Sunday where it was announced:
“On April 3, 2014, Bob Coy resigned as Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, effective immediately, after confessing to a moral failing in his life which disqualifies him from continuing his leadership role at the church he has led since its founding in 1985.” (Source)
58-yr old Bob Coy with his wife founded Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale nearly 30 years ago. The church reportedly has over 20,000 attendees and a staff of over 1,000 at 10 different campuses.
Michael Newnham at Phoenix Preacher blog reported:
We have confirmed that Coy has admitted to at least two affairs in the past year alone and has had a long standing “problem with pornography”.
Word of this scandal was first leaked in an anonymous comment on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog run by Alex Grenier.
Alex Grenier began Calvary Chapel Abuse blog four years ago to go public with accounts of alleged abuse and corruption among the Calvary Chapel family of churches and to give others an opportunity to share their stories. Incidentally, Alex Grenier was sued by his step-father, Calvary Chapel Visalia Bob Grenier, for publicly speaking out about alleged abuse he, his brothers (physical and sexual), church staff, and church members (spiritual abuse) at Calvary Chapel Visalia incurred. This defamation lawsuit is now in appeals. (Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier Lawsuit and Sex Abuse)
Alex Grenier had this to say on his blog about the Coy scandal and the lack of accountability at Calvary Chapel churches in general:
Coy will suffer loss for his sin. He was a big boy and took risks and made the choices he made and now it’s time to pay the piper. Many don’t get caught in Calvary Chapel and they get away with their sin for many years. My step-dad is one such example. I have more sympathy for a “moral” issue like Coy’s appears to be than I do for someone who hurts kids…but regardless, we’re all sinners and we all need Jesus. None of us get “transformed” and none of us can meet the standard…even after we’re supposedly saved. That is the great myth of Calvary Chapel’s brand of Christianity*…there is no such thing as the “transformation” gospel. We’re all still sinners after we’re saved and we’re all just as capable of sinning as we were before we were saved…which is why we NEED ACCOUNTABILITY measures in place to protect kids and to have open finances to keep things on the up-and-up with the Jesus money. (Bob Coy to resign as senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale: Update 4/6/14)
This scandal has brought scores of people to Alex’s site, wreaking havoc on the server. At one point there were over 3,700 visitors at one time. Alex said that this amount of traffic is far more than when the story broke of Chuck Smith’s death. But large traffic is not new to CCA. It continues even when there is not a consistent flow of new articles. Why is that????
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It is important to note that Calvary Chapel churches use the Moses Model of church governance. This system of governance, I believe, creates an environment ripe for corruption and abuse to take place because there is little to no accountability among the pastors. Here is part of an interview from 2007 in which Calvary Chapel founder Chuck Smith (now deceased) describes the Moses Model system:
“We take the model from the work that God established in the nation of Israel,” Smith says. “Moses was the leader appointed by God. He took 70 men, and they assisted Moses in overseeing the mundane types of issues that developed within the nation. There was the priesthood under Aaron.” Similarly, he says, “we have assistant pastors, and they look to me as the senior pastor. I’m responsible to the Lord. We have a board of elders. We go over the budget. The people recognize that God has called me to be the leader of this fellowship. We are not led by a board of elders. I feel my primary responsibility is to the Lord. And one day I’m going to answer to him, not to a board of elders.” (Source)
For more information, including diagrams, on the Moses Model system and why it is problematic, please see this article: Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, The Moses Model: Let the Little Dogs Bark!
**
It’s interesting to note that in this franchise of churches of which each church is governed independently, they sure know how to come together quickly and efficiently to do damage control and internet scrubbing when there is a scandal. Michael Newnham made this observation:
There is no more bizarre, anti-Christian ritual in evangelicalism than the expunging of a man’s life work from the church and the internet when he falls. Coy has been deleted from the CCA website and they are wiping the CCFTL site as fast as they can. (Things I Think)
When you have a corrupt system, sometimes leaders will face the consequences of their sin or moral failure, sometimes they go on with life and continue their ministry work without getting caught. In the comment section at Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, a personal story from Lianne shows us what it’s like when a leader does not get caught and she, the wife, and now victim, is left to face the consequences of that corrupt system.
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I am a former CC wife. Former is the key word! My ex husband was in ministry in South Florida. He was heavily influenced by CCCM Pastors who viewed me as too worldly to be his wife. They planted many lies in his head about me that had no merit but that he very much took to heart.
What I did not know was two years before we had met, my ex husband had confessed to the head Pastor his sexual issues including visiting strip clubs and buying pornography. His punishment was a month off and then right back into Ministry. Not once during marriage counseling did either one of them disclose this very important information to me.
What took place after our wedding was nothing short of a living hell. I had no clue the seriousness of his sexual addiction. He was still being encouraged to be in full time ministry. Yet I was the one being blamed for any problems he had.
We were later transferred to a Central Florida CC where he was on staff. The Head Pastor walked around with body guards! If you attempted to approach him, you were immediately swarmed by them. It was rather ridiculous considering the size of the CC. This is where I became very disillusioned with CC.
When you attend church as a member, it is far different than attending as a spouse of a staff member. You here [sic] them talk about people, you hear them being petty and cheap, spending money else where rather than helping others. It’s where you see church being ran as a business rather than as a place to help and minister to others.
My ex husbands sexual issues continued to run rampet [sic], so much so he was caught at church having viewed several pornographic material. Once again, nothing was done. I was scolded told I needed to be more sexual for my husband everything would be ok!
This same year I discovered his former Pastor was forced to resign from his position due to sexual harassment of another staff members wife. What happened after was sickening. He was called back to CCCM by the founder to serve as Associate Pastor. He was eventually fired from CC but not until the damage was done.
My ex was a fraud. He preached dating wasn’t of God. He preached not to be alone with any girl or to hold hands. Not kissing before marriage. Yet behind close doors he was having disgusting sexual conversations with woman online and had an active membership to a pornography store in town. Yes everyone makes mistakes and everyone sins. But that is why God holds Pastors and teachers to a higher standard than anyone else. If you can’t live it yourself, you have no business preaching it to anyone else. It’s spiritually damaging to believe in someone, trust someone, especially with your faith and to find out they are living a double life.
It took me years to get over the emotional brainwashing and abuse that took place while I was with him. Total character association placing all his faults on me because the church needed him. For a long time I believed I was at fault. I wasn’t good enough but God finally opened my eyes to the lies I was believing. He never intended for me to be hurt and used the way this man treated me. My ex chose it, not God. He will one day at judgement answer to God for what he put me through. My ex would not get help. Would not stop lying or cheating. He didn’t want me to leave, but he also did not plan to repent and fix what he was doing.
After much prayer, I took the out the Lord gave me and divorced him. I am finally healed from the damage both physically, emotionally and spiritually inflicted by these CC pastors.
I attended CCFTL for many years. Even before it was the mega church it is today. I loved Pastor Bob! Still do. I am very saddened to hear he himself was living a double standard. I ache for his wife and kids. It feels like a nuclear bomb is dropped on you when you discover your Pastor, husband and spiritual leader is betraying you. That he cared more about his needs than keeping the sacred vows he made to you before God. CCFTL’s staff did the right thing by asking for his resignation. When you marry a Pastor you would believe you’d be safe from dealing with any of this. After all, no one knows the Bible inside and out like they do, especially CC pastor’s who pride themselves on commentary and chapter by chapter vs by vs to keep it all in context. Unfortunately it’s not the case at all.
***
Related links:
Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier: Stories of Abuse As Told by His Children
Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier Files Lawsuit against ..
Alex Grenier Responds to Notice of Imminent Lawsuit by Calvary Chapel Visalia & Pastor Bob Grenier
Spiritual Sounding Board 
What are some underlying systematic causes for the Moral Corruption of Bob Coy and other Calvary Chapel pastors?
One clear systematic distinctive of Calvary Chapel is their approach to teaching the Bible.
(verse by verse, book by book, assuming it’s all “God-breathed” because Paul said so).
I would like to discuss the Bible input compared with what kind of fruits are produced by Calvary Chapel’s approach to teaching the Bible.
The Article above quotes Chuck Smith saying, QUOTE:
“We are not led by a board of elders. I feel my primary responsibility is to the Lord. And one day I’m going to answer to him, not to a board of elders.”
Paul wrote to the church he founded in Corinth, QUOTE
“I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.” [1 Corinthians 4:3-4]
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Matthew Perri,
You still are avoiding my question. Where are the epistles that Peter discusses that Paul wrote, that he indicates that the same people that Peter was writing to read them?
Where are they? Are they the same epistles that you claim are a lie? Or are they different.
Answer the question posed.
In addition, John said that God’s commandments (plural) just one commandment (singular).
You keep avoiding those two topics. All you are doing is denying Paul’s letters without producing evidence of the epistles that Peter is discussing.
Provide those epistles, Matthew. Put up, or shut up.
Ed
________________________________
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Is put up or shut up your new siggy line, Ed?
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Dear Gary W
RE: “the question of identifying and dealing with people who, in my opinion, should not be church leadership.”
The Church in Corinth was infamous as an unhealthy wacky carnal church.
We have more Bible text written about this one church, and more written specifically TO this one church, than any other church in the Bible.
So,
When Paul wrote his two letters to the church, who was the church leader, in charge of all aspects of the church in Corinth?
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Ed,
People like Matthew are fun because they are so self-evidently driven by private agendas, which in turn makes it easy to expose them to any who care to watch. Of course they cannot see their own folly, which is in a way kind of sad.
Still, people like Matthew can be useful as real life, in the flesh, object lessons. They can be compared with people who are in positions to do real damage, people like the Calvary Chapel “pastors” who are the subject of this thread.
One thing I think I see in Matthew is evidence of the psychological phenomenon of splitting, or all-or-nothing, all-good-or-completely-evil thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_%28psychology%29). The phenomenon is related to idealization and devaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation). We seem to see these phenomena in Matthew in that he goes from singing Paul’s praises some years ago to, now, seeking out forums where he can subject Paul to irrational, though quite rabid, character assassination.
We see the same sort of thing with destructive “pastors.” Unfortunately, these “pastors,” who I count among the wolves, pigs and vipers, can devour the lambs for whom our Lord laid down His life. These “pastors” will embrace a congregant, often engaging in love bombing, public praising, etc., so long as the “pastor’s” agendas are served. However, once a congregant no longer serves these “pastors’” purposes they are quickly devalued, perceived as evil (splitting), and subjected to all forms of abuse. The poor lambs are marginalized, slandered, shunned and even sued.
The lesson? If you ever find yourself being embraced to excess, praised and glorified by any “pastor,” run. Run for your life. You are about to be devalued, demonized and destroyed.
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Gary W
Great Summation – But then again – with your background… 😉
Yes – Matthew is an “object lesson.”
Yes – “People like Matthew are fun.”
Yes – “Of course they cannot see their own folly,”
And, Matthew helps WE, His Sheep, His Disciples to be prepared…
When WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Called Out Ones…
Meet someone trying to create doubt, unbelief, about the scriptures…
Trying to create doubt, unbelief, about Paul, and what he writes…
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Amos,
One of the sad things about Matthew is that he makes some good points, but he loses credibility by going too far. To the extent that Matthew is saying something along the lines that Paul is not the new Moses, and that his instructions to the early assemblies are not necessarily to be viewed as some sort of normative prescriptions for all places and all times, I could appreciate what he is saying. However, when he begins to demonize Paul, it becomes difficult for me to see what is good in his thinking.
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Matthew Perri
You write to me @ MAY 28, 2014 @ 1:55 PM…
“With due respect and love, I must note that you are both engaging in “Ad Hominem” attacks and “Begging the Question” rather than facing the specific issues I am raising from the text of the Bible itself.”
Hmmm? Was wondering… “With due respect and love,”
Are you accusing me of being an “Ad Hominem” attacker?”
Wouldn’t that be an “Ad Hominem” attack on your part? On me? 😉
———–
An “Ad Hominem” attack by you – “rather than facing the specific issues
I am raising from the text of the Bible itself?”
You say you’re following Jesus – BUT – You “Ignore” Jesus – When…
Jesus calls it “A New Commandment” and “MY Commandment”
**That ye love one another;**
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
**if ye have love one to another.**
Yup – Jesus warned us about those who say one thing and do another…
Yes – Matthew is an “object lesson.”
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Matthew Perri
And – If you re-read my comment to you about “Clearly.”
You’ll see – I was trying to help you debate. Eliminate “Weasel words.”
But – You are so stuck on being “Right” – NOT proven “Wrong”
You thought I was attacking “YOU.”
I do NOT mind your challenges about Paul…
I was there at one time. And the list of challenges was much longer, tougher.
And, I kinda like how you’re willing to stand against…
The Crowd – and The Tradtions of Men. Makes folks think a little.
I just do NOT think you have made a very good case about Paul…
“from the text of the Bible itself.” 😉
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Matthew Perri
Hmmm? Clearly – Your credibility, your reliability, is Clearly suspect…
Especially when you write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
“Even if you feel you “can’t agree” with me, do you at least have the courage to admit that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?”
1 – Well, Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
You write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
“Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself.
**No one else** in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”.
Because there is no “apostleship..”
Well – How about, in “the pages of scripture” – Acts chapter one…
Seems Luke, writes about, and “uses” the word “apostleship.” 😉
Acts 1:24-25 KJV
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord,
which knowest the hearts of all men,
shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
That he may take part of this ministry
**and apostleship,**
from which Judas by transgression fell,
that he might go to his own place.
2 – And, were you wrong when you called Paul, pastor?
You called Paul *the abusive absentee pastor* @ APRIL 15, 2014 @ 10:49 PM
And, how you were corrected, from “the pages of scripture?”
Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – pastor?
3 – And, are you wrong when you change to **the abusive absentee leader?**
You change @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:35 PM, and write…
“Paul was **the abusive absentee leader** of the Church in Corinth”
And, NOW, are you being corrected again by “the pages of scripture?”
Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – leader?
Seems Paul called himself a “Servant.”
Seems ALL of Jesus’ Disciples called themselves “Servants.”
Seems Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders.”
For you have “ONE” leader, The Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB.
Seems His Disciples believed Jesus. Because, in “the pages of scripture”
NOT one of His Disciples ever called them self “Leader.”
Yeah, you wrote @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
“do you at least have the courage to admit
that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?”
Well, that looks like three strikes and…
Oh Yeah #4 – You write @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:35 PM about the word pastor.
“No I Do not you call myself, or have the “Title” pastor today?”
“It is a rare word in the Bible – basically, **it’s Paul’s word.**”
NOPE, Pastor is NOT Paul’s word. Paul wrote poi men, which means shepherds…
The translaters put “pastors” in Eph 4:11 – NOT Paul. Wow, MP, wrong again.
Do you have ** the courage to admit?**
You, Matthew Perri, are “wrong from the pages of Scripture?”
Again, and again, and again, and again, and….
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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Matthew Perri
And you never answered this…
I agree – WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, should follow Jesus – NOT Paul.
1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
3 – How do you suggest others do that?
————-
Do you NOT know? – How to follow Jesus?
Do you NOT know? – How to help others follow Jesus?
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Bear with me here, but if I am correct in supposing that Matthew is exhibiting the phenomenon of splitting, then I also believe that it is possible, though not certain, that he is in the good company of none other than Saul/Paul himself. At http://fromthepew.blogspot.com/search/label/Rich%20Young%20Ruler Steve Scott makes the case that Paul was none other than the rich young ruler. When I first read Steve’s appealing ideas a few days ago I thought I perceived an inconsistency. The rich young ruler merely walked away sad. This does not at all appear to be the same person as the angry, violent Saul our Lord met on the road to Damascus. I now see that the apparent inconsistency is no objection at all. The rich young ruler appears to have been attracted to Jesus. Perhaps he perceived and was drawn by Jesus’ love for him. True, the young ruler’s initial response to Jesus’ identification of the young man’s sin was initially met with mere sadness. However, it is not at all difficult to imagine pride causing such sadness to mutate into full blown retaliatory, violent, hatred. We would now recognize this transformation as an instance of splitting, of idealization and devaluation.
While we cannot know for sure, it certainly seems to me to be appropriate to suppose that maybe, just maybe, the tentative follower of Jesus who was the rich young ruler became the angry, violent Saul–the same angry, violent Saul who our Lord, amazingly enough, chose to be His instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and Kings and the children of Israel.
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Gary W
Thanks a bunch for this info…
You’ve made my brain hurt. 😉
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Thanks Amos. I’ll take that as a compliment. You will recognize that Steve Scott is a contributor here. If you have not already discovered it out, I commend his blog to you. What first motivated me to check out his blog a few days ago was something he said on another SSB thread about modern notions of church membership being false, or words to that effect. I think you would approve.
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To my Dear Brother A. Amos Love,
Thank you for taking the time to open your Bible and prove me wrong on a specific point of Scripture. None of us know everything- Not me, or you, or Paul the Pharisee either.
You asked me, QUOTE:
1 – Well, Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
You write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
“Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself.
**No one else** in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”.
Because there is no “apostleship..”
Well – How about, in “the pages of scripture” – Acts chapter one…
Seems Luke, writes about, and “uses” the word “apostleship.” 😉
Acts 1:24-25 KJV
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord,
which knowest the hearts of all men,
shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
That he may take part of this ministry
**and apostleship,**
from which Judas by transgression fell,
that he might go to his own place.
Yes A. Amos Love, I was wrong on that particular point about the Greek word translated “apostleship.” I was relying on the NIV, but there are other translations. Most importantly, I checked the actual Greek text in my Greek Interlinear NT, and yes, it is the same word, in [1 Corinthians 9:2] and [Acts 1:24-25] which could be translated “apostleship” or “apostolic ministry.”
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. And as Jesus reminded us from the Torah, Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. This applies to everyone, no exceptions. To me, to you, and also to Paul the Pharisee. Paul was not somehow “the exception to the rule” who didn’t need another witness to back up what he said about himself.
So now that we agree that you were right and I was wrong on that particular point, I learned something new about the unchanging text of the Bible, and I have changed my view regarding the one word “apostleship.”
You have brought up a number of other points I would like to discuss and interact with. But to facilitate a more orderly discussion, I would like to propose that we fully address the central point, namely
“What is an Apostle”?
I have stated that, according to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias.
I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.
Based on these sources, do you agree?
Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Blessing,
Matthew
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Amos,
It appears Matthew is trying to draw you into a dispute over the meaning of a word. I wonder if it is profitable. I’m inclined to go with Paul, who speaks of those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction. 1 Timothy 6:4. And again Paul admonishes Timothy to, “Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.” (2 Timothy 2:14 ESV)
But then (sarcasm alert!), who is Paul that we should be influenced by anything he has to say?
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Steve Scott has great things to say. I wish he would blog more and have told him so 🙂
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Also, while we’re using Matthew as an object lesson, did you notice how many words it took him to fess up to the fact that he had made mistake. Now, I’m not intending to pile onto Matthew. He isn’t claiming any pastoral authority over anybody here. But can you imaging how difficult it would be to deal with any so called pastor who found it as difficult to admit a mistake as it appears to be for Matthew to do so? Once again, if you’re ever around such a “pastor,” Run. Run now. Do not, do not delay.
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Dear A. Amos Love,
So Gary W seems to have answered my question.
Regarding
“What is an Apostle”?
It seems Gary W believes that
“words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible”
are
“insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong.”
Instead, Gary W says Quote: ” I’m inclined to go with Paul.”
You, or he, or someone else can correct me if you think I’ve misinterpreted or misrepresented Gary W’s words here.
What about you?
Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?
or do you “go with Paul”?
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Steve Scott always has a lot of good things to say….
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Julie Anne,
“Is put up or shut up your new siggy line, Ed?”
In this case…yeah. Accusations without evidence. Paul is on trial. The witnesses are Peter, James, John, and Luke. The judge is about to dismiss the case, unless the prosecution provides evidence. All we have so far is hearsay.
Ed
________________________________
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Matthew Perri
Yes – There is a glimmer of hope for you… 😉
You were, @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 10:17 AM, able to admit you were wrong… 🙂
About *particular point* # 1…
1 – Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
“I was wrong on that *particular point*
about the Greek word translated “apostleship.”
But – What about the other “particular points?” That were pointed out, pointing to “Pugnacious Perri” promoting phony phantom phallacies about Paul? @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 8:32 AM.
2 – And, were you wrong when you called Paul, pastor?
Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – pastor?
3 – And, are you wrong when you change to **the abusive absentee leader?**
Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – leader?
4 – Are you wrong when you say “pastor” is Paul’s word?
Wasn’t it – “The translators put “pastors” in Eph 4:11 – NOT Paul?
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
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Matthew Perri
And, are you able to admit you were wrong about these *particular points?*
You accused Paul @ MAY 16, 2014 @ 10:12 PM…
Of NOT knowing The Greatest, Most Important, First commandment.
You write – “Paul the Pharisee *didn’t know*
the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus.”
How do you know Paul did NOT know?
“the greatest, most important, first commandment?”
You call Paul a Pharisee, and ALL Pharisee’s would be familiar with…
Deut 6:5 KJV – and – Deut 10:12-13 KJV
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Jesus, was asked about, “the greatest, most important, first commandment?
NOT Paul… 😉
And, Sure looks like Jesus quoted from Deut.6:5… 😉
Then added to Deut 6:5, Leviticus 19:18, in Mat 22:39….
Lev 19:18 – “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.”
Which is very similar to Jesus, and His – The New Commandment… 🙂
John 13:34-35 – A *NEW commandment* I give unto you,
**That ye love one another;**
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
**if ye have love one to another.**
Which is very similar to Paul…
Rom 13:8 – Owe no man any thing, but to “love one another:”
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Gal 5:14* – For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
Which is very similar to James…
James 2:8 – If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,” ye do well:
Which is very similar to John…
1 John 3:23 – And this is *His commandment,*…
and *love one another,* as He gave us commandment.
MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about these *particular points?*
1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?
….. After all, you, MP, call him, “Paul the Pharisee.”
2 – Jesus, NOT Paul, was asked about The Greatest Commandment?
3 – And Paul could have been proclaiming The New Commandment?
…. That Jesus, James, and John proclaimed? 🙂
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G’day Amos,
Very possibly Matthew, like many “pastors”, is characterologically incapable of admitting or even recognizing, significant error. Yet, unless he is acting in a “pastoral” capacity, he is deserving of our compassion. The etiology or root cause of his incapacity is very possibly found, not in his intellect, but in his having been devalued by his parents, and especially by his father. For such people, to be wrong is felt as being a bad person, as being worthless. I could be wrong, of course, but Matthew might find the possibility worth considering.
Matthew, please forgive me if any of this embarrasses you. Please do NOT feel obligated to respond to what I suggest. If it does not apply to you, it may help somebody else.
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Dear A. Amos Love
I can’t answer 20 points all at the same time.
You have brought up a number of other points I would like to discuss and interact with. But to facilitate a more orderly discussion, I would like to propose that we fully address the central point in the discussion we were already having at length, namely
“What is an Apostle”?
I have stated that, according to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias.
I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.
Based on these sources, do you agree?
Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?
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Amos,
Matthew appeals to John Paul Jackson as a source. Jackson wrote a common sense appeal warning of the dangers of neophytes engaging in spiritual warfare against higher echelon demons. Still, as between Jackson and Paul, I’ll go with Paul. Same thing as between Matthew and Paul.
Now if Matthew would just agree to apply his hermeneutic to the doctrines of the so called trinity we might have something to discuss…
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Matthew Perri,
Why do you neglect to respond to my questions, Matthew?
Your answer to my questions would clear up your inconsistencies.
Peter mentions Epistles that Paul wrote, and indicates that people that Peter had already read them, which means that these epistles were of public domain, not private.
And so my question to you…again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again is….
Where are those epistles that Peter was talking about?
If those epistles are the same exact ones that you are discussing, then all of your talk about “What is an Apostle” is a MUTE POINT.
Peter acknowledges Paul. So, WHERE ARE PAUL’S EPISTLES.
Shut up about what is an apostle. You need to answer the question, because without that question being answered, you have no argument.
By the way…who put the Bible together in the first place?
Ed
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Matthew Perri,
I will play your game:
Apostle Strong’s Concordance
Greek Reference 652 1. A delegate 2. An Ambassador of the Gospel 3. Officially a commissioner of Christ
Other “English” words used for 652: 1. Messenger (Philippians 2:25; 2 Corinthians 8:23)
2. He that is sent (John 13:16)
1. Philippians 2:25 (Messenger/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
2. 2 Corinthians 8:23 (Messenger/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
3. John 13:16 (Sent/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Game over.
Ed
________________________________
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Well, this is funny. Matthew relies on John Paul Jackson as a source, as somebody worth quoting. What does Jackson call Paul?
Holding breath. . . . .long (really long) drum roll:
AN APOSTLE!!!
https://m.facebook.com/JPJFanPage/posts/10151324433607653
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Dear A. Amos Love,
Now Ed also seems to have answered my question.
Regarding
“What is an Apostle”?
It seems Ed believes also that
“words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible”
are
“insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong.”
Instead, Ed goes with Strong’s Concordance
According to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias. Neither Jesus, nor any of the Original Apostles, ever said that Paul was an Apostle. And none of them ever referred to any specific man outside of the 12 as Apostles either.
Jesus did walk with the 12 Apostles for 3 1/2 years, and ultimately they were sent. But in John 13:16 Jesus is not designating or appointing anyone an apostle, He is not expanding His own definition to include men outside the 12 who walked with Him for 3 1/2 years, and He certainly isn’t appointing Paul an apostle.
Other than Paul talking about himself, no one in the pages of the New Testament ever said that Paul was appointed an apostle, and no one else recognized Paul individually as an apostle either.
Ed has not refuted these facts, and no one else in the world has either.
What about you?
Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?
or do you “go with Paul and Strong’s Concordance”?
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Matthew Perri,
Peter acknowledges that Paul is an apostle. Peter’s epistles are public domain, and so was Paul’s epistles that Peter discussed. There has never been any historical claim, let alone evidence that revealed any other epistles of Paul than the ones that we have in our Bibles.
They can find the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc., which no real Christian will acknowledge, but absolutely no mention of any alternative Paul letters.
So, without evidence of any such claim Matthew Perri needs to go.
Leave the Spiritual Abuse Blogs, Matthew, because you are dangerous, and you will, if you haven’t already, produce victims.
Ed
________________________________
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Gary W
Now that is funny…
John Paul Jackson, is one of MP’s sources.
MP writes @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 6:34 PM…
“Here is a relevant quote from John Paul Jackson,”
And John Paul Jackson calls Paul, The Apostle Paul, on facebook… 🙂
“The Apostle Paul tells us to be a slave of righteousness—are you?”
MP keeps asking…
“I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.
Based on these sources, do you agree?
Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”
Now, I do NOT agree with most of what John Paul Jackson says, stands for…
But, and this is really tough for me, in this case I’ll make an acception… 😉
Yes – Based on MP’s source, John Paul Jackson,
I agree with John Paul Jackson, calling Paul, “The Apostle Paul.”
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Matthew Perri
You ask @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 11:19 AM…
“What about you?”
“Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?”
“or do you “go with Paul”?”
How many times do I have to tell you, On this point we agree. Sheeessshhh.
Jesus always taught WE, His Ekklesia, His Disciples, to follow Him, Jesus…
Jesus NEVER said WE, His Sheep, should follow Mere Fallible Humans.
The question is – Do you, Matthew Perri, follow Jesus?
Is MP, one of His Disciples? Learning from Jesus directly? NO Middle Man?
Jesus said, “…And they shall be ALL taught of God…” John 6:45
“MY Sheep – Hear MY Voice – and Follow ME.” John 10:27
Or – Do you just say – You follow Jesus?
“But to facilitate a more orderly discussion,”
1 – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
3 – How do you suggest others do that?
I ask because I’m having a hard time believing you follow Jesus. 😦
If I’m wrong – Please forgive me….
If I’m correct – Pease repent… 😉
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Matthew Perri
Have you decided to follow Tertullion? And NOT Jesus?
In the link you provided @ MAY 28, 2014 @ 7:38 PM…
http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/56-marcionism.html
“Tertullion in Against Marcion rebutted Marcion **by attacking Paul.** He questioned whether Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, saying a self-serving claim, as Paul made of being an apostle of Jesus, does not suffice. Tertullian suggested Paul was a false prophet. He also called Paul the “apostle of the heretics.”
Why would you lead, point, WE, His Sheep His Ekklesia, to Tertullion?”
And NOT lead, point, folks to Jesus?
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Matthew Perri
You write @ JUNE 1, 2014 @ 12:34 PM…
“Dear A. Amos Love
I can’t answer 20 points all at the same time.”
Okay, maybe you’re correct… BUT…
Personally, I do NOT think you’re trying very hard. 😉
Personally, I do NOT think you want to answer the *particular points.*
Personally, I do No think you count very well.
There are only six *particular points* – NOT 20 points… 😉
“But to facilitate a more orderly discussion,”
Let’s try them one at a time…
MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about this *particular point?*
1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?
You accused Paul @ MAY 16, 2014 @ 10:12 PM…
Of NOT knowing The Greatest, Most Important, First commandment.
You write – “Paul the Pharisee *didn’t know*
the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus.”
How do you know Paul did NOT know?
“the greatest, most important, first commandment?”
You call Paul a Pharisee, and ALL Pharisee’s would be familiar with…
Deut 6:5 KJV – and – Deut 10:12-13 KJV
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Which is what Jesus said when asked – What is The Greatest Commandment?
….. After all, you, MP, call him, “Paul the Pharisee.”
So, MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about this *particular point?*
1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?
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A. Amos Love
I’ve had extensive dialogue with you and two other men here on this thread regarding the question
“What is an Apostle”?
and specifically what are your sources for your definition?
I learned something new from you about the word “apostleship” which I did not know before, so I want to thank you yet again for bringing my error to light. But you have still left the central question unanswered, “What is an Apostle”? I want to be further enlightened from your extensive knowledge base about any misunderstanding in my thinking, so I don’t want to drop this question and change the subject without resolving the question. Perhaps we may just agree to disagree. But you are an intelligent man, so together we should be able to state clearly in agreement WHY we disagree. I think the reason is because we are relying on different sources to answer this one question, “What is an Apostle”?
My sources to answer THIS ONE QUESTION are
the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible.
Not Paul
Not the passing editorial comments out of context of Paul’s Gentile friend Luke
Not Strong’s Concordance
Not a Greek Dictionary
Not church tradition
Not John Paul Jackson
Not the opinion of any other living man
What are YOUR sources to answer THIS ONE QUESTION
“What is an Apostle”?
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So Matthew….
You write…
“But you have still left the central question unanswered,”
“What is an Apostle?”
But – I think “the central question unanswered” is…
Do you, Matthew Perri, follow Jesus?
And – How do you follow Jesus?
Because, I’m-a-havin-hard-time believing you follow the Jesus I know. 😦
————–
And – I can NOT recall your definition of – “What is an Apostle?”
So, I do NOT know if I agree with your definition or NOT… 😉
Now, I cudda missed your definition – so please help me out…
Matthew Perri – “What is an Apostle?”
As, “recorded in the text of the Bible?”
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Matthew Perri
And Please…
Just give the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”
So I can read them for myself without your interpretation of what they mean.
Thanks
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A. Amos Love
I have already explained my definition above, if you want to look. ( I know that the 4 of us have written a lot.) But unless we agree on what the sources are to define “what is an Apostle” then it doesn’t really matter what I say or quote again. If our sources are different, we will never agree.
My sources are the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible,
Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources?
Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?
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Amos,
MP would make a good attorney. If the statutes were against him he would ask to judge to only look only at the case law. If the case law was against him, he would ask the judge to look at only the statutes. Trouble is, the judges would see through his subterfuge, just like we now see through his subterfuge.
Plus which, apostle means apostle, and just because Jesus didn’t use the word apostle when He commissioned Paul on the Damascus road, Jesus Himself assigned to Paul the apostolic task to the gentiles. Even applying his own criteria, MP loses the argument.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
Perhaps I will begin to refer to Matthew as Mr. Dumpty.
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Pau wrote to the church he was running as an abusive absentee leader:
“Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.” [1 Corinthians 9:2]
So Paul the Pharisee, in his own words admits that he “may not be an apostle” to some people. But he’s an apostle to the people reading his letter to the Corinthians. Others have their truth about what an apostle is and you Corinthians have your own truth! Just because something isn’t true for them doesn’t mean it’s not true for you! Paul is saying that the truth about what an apostle means is relative truth.
“When I use a word,’ Paul the Phairsee said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
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A Amos Love
Even tho I agree with your premise to follow Jesus, Paul states:
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Paul is indicating that he follows Christ, and in the same manner that he follows Christ, we should follow his lead. And I agree.
I told Matthew, Lead, follow, or get out of the way!
Ed
________________________________
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Matthew Perri asks A Amos Love the following: “Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources? Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”
My response: Until you respond in regards to my question about Peter’s reference to Paul’s epistles, your question is mute.
If Peter acknowledges Paul, the Peter is agreeing that Paul is an apostle. And if that be the case, you have no case. Period. With a period.
Go away!
Ed
________________________________
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Matthew Perri,
I have no idea where the teaching that Luke was a Gentile originated from, but I have heard it before.
Jews wrote the Gospels, and Jews wrote the epistles.
Luke HAD TO BE A JEW.
Why?
Because Paul was a Pharisee. Paul would not have had social relations with a Gentile while he was a Pharisee. Even Peter would not until God gave him a vision, for it is UNLAWFUL for a Jew.
Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
________________________________
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So he’s not YOUR apostle. Big deal. Go away.
Ed
________________________________
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Matthew Perri
You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 11:12 AM…
“I have already explained my definition above, if you want to look.”
I have looked, and I can NOT find your definition for “What is an Apostle?” I searched this thread and found the term “What is an Apostle?’ 29 times. And, “What is an Apostle? is 18 times, in the comments of Matthew Perri.
Wow – I must have a lot of time on my hands – Maybe I need a hobby… 😉
And, I can NOT find, once, your definition of “What is an Apostle?”
You state your sources – But, I can NOT find your definition…
You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 11:12 AM…
“My sources are the words and actions of Jesus
and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible,
Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources?
Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”
———-
Matthew – Your sources are fine.
If your sources are -”recorded in the text of the Bible?”
That’s why I asked you @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 10:32 AM….
“Matthew Perri – “What is an Apostle?”
As, “recorded in the text of the Bible?”
Then added…
And Please…
Just give the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”
So I can read them for myself without your interpretation of what they mean.
Thanks
————–
Please – A little help here – From your sources… 😉
What is your definition for “What is an Apostle?”
What are the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”
What are “the words and actions of Jesus” that explain “What is an Apostle?
Thanks again…
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Matthew Perri
You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 12:27 PM…
“Paul wrote to the church he was running as an abusive absentee leader:”
SHHHHEEEESSSHH!!! I thought we covered this… 😉
Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
Where Paul was abusive?
Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
Where Paul calls himself – Leader?
Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
Where anyone calls Paul – Leader?
Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
Where any of His Disciples, His Apostles, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His sons,
Called them self – Leader? Called another Disciple – Leader?
Seems Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called Leader.
For you have “ONE” Leader – The Christ.
And NONE did… NOT one of His Disciples called them self Leader.
In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Now, you say you follow Jesus. – BUT – Do you?
Why isn’t what Jesus said important? 😉
Jesus, is – “recorded in the text of the Bible,” saying…
The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader…. IS…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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The common, classical definition of “apostle” is one whom Jesus commissioned and sent out to share his message. This happened in two different time periods in his ministry. First he sent out the 70 (or 72), including the twelve. Second, after his resurrection, he commissioned, according to the Gospels and the first part of Acts, over 500, including the women at the tomb. Some people limit the use of “Apostle blank” with a capital A to the Eleven, since Jesus did not replace the missing one directly, but the Eleven did. But both concepts have existed since early church history. There is also a NT reference to Junia as an apostle.
Matthew wants to argue that only the Eleven plus one (and not Saul/Paul) should be referred to as “Apostles”. That is a very old argument, as is the position regarding the 500. More recent is the treatment of Junia, due to centuries of mistaken translation.
This argument will not be resolved here. Any good, non Patriarchist seminary library will have many volumes that relate to this argument. It is not resolvable. There are excellent authorities on every side.
So let’s drop this and be busy about helping those who have been hurt, working to prevent additional hurt, and reaching out to those who need to know Jesus.
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A. Amos Love,
Blessings to you in the name above all names, Jesus.
So we agree to consider the question “What is an Apostle” with the sources being the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles in the text of the New Testament.
.1) Gospel of Mark – time lag between being appointed and being sent
“Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. He appointed twelve – designating them apostles – that they might be with him…” [Mark 3:13-14]
Three chapters later,
“Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.” [Mark 6:6-7]
.2) Gospel of Luke – time lag between being appointed and being sent
“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon…..” [Luke 6:12-14]
Again three chapters later,
“When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.” [Luke 9:1-2]
.3) Gospel of Matthew – which is organized by theme, not necessarily in chronological order.
“He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon…” [Matthew 10:1]
Without any clear time reference, continuing on the theme of the Apostles, Matthew does record “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions…” [Matthew 10:5] Matthew never said that the Apostles were “sent out” immediately after being appointed. If we didn’t also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. In this case, that assumption would clearly be wrong. The Twelve Apostles were absolutely NOT sent out right away after being appointed Apostles, according to Mark chapters 3 through 6, and Luke chapters 6 through 9.
So being an Apostle of Jesus involves being sent by Jesus, yes. But that isn’t the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. The first thing was “that they might be with Him” personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. Jesus poured his life into the 12 Apostles for 3 ½ years very personally training them to be the leaders of the church, and Jesus chose Peter as first among equals.
The NIV translation inserts the heading “Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas” for the passage Luke wrote in Acts 1:12-26]. The NIV headings were not part of the original text, and sometimes they can be misleading, but in this case I believe the heading is right on.
Jesus and the Original Apostles knew what an Apostle is better than anyone else in the world. Why is this a strange idea? Why do so many people frequently attack and tear down and dismiss the Original Apostles, particularly Peter, as if they were all incompetent, stupid, and wrong in so many ways, and they didn’t even know what an “Apostle” was? The answer to that question is, they have been listening to the voice of Paul, rather than the voices of Jesus and the Original Apostles.
As we consider the question “what is an Apostle”, we should carefully listen to the words of the leader that Jesus personally appointed as first among the Apostles, and trained personally for 3 ½ years, Peter.
“It is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” [Acts 1:21-22]
Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a “witness with the Apostles of Jesus’ resurrection”, which is what it means to be an Apostle. Matthias was qualified, appointed, and later recognized as part of The Twelve. No one except Judas ever lost his apostleship.
Responding to a question from Peter,
“Jesus said to them:
…you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Matthew 19:28]
We cannot prove that Judas was present at that time, and we cannot prove that Matthias was absent at that time when Jesus spoke those words. Even if Judas was physically present, as we all realize now, he was not a true follower of Jesus. And even if Matthias was physically absent at that particular occasion, Jesus is still establishing the basic qualification for having one of the twelve thrones as being “you who have followed me,” not someone who will follow Jesus in the future, like Paul, James, Luke or anyone else in the world.
At the Last Supper, Jesus said to His Apostles:
“You are those who have stood by me in my trials. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Luke 22:28-30]
Was Judas present when Jesus spoke those words? Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we can’t prove that Judas wasn’t there at the time, we certainly can’t prove that Judas WAS there. Judas obviously didn’t stand by Jesus in his trial, as the whole world knows. But that was the requirement Jesus gave to “sit on thrones:” “You are those who have stood by me in my trials.” “You”, speaking to His 11 Apostles who had been walking with Him faithfully for 3 ½ years. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of “thrones” rather than “twelve thrones” as he had previously.
The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem,
“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” [Revelation 21:14]
The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. That’s the short version of my definition of “what is an Apostle.”
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Matthew Perri,
That didn’t answer a thing. All you did was clarify WHO the Apostles were up thru Acts Chapter 1.
You neglected to clarify WHAT IS AN APOSTLE. What is not a who. Nice try…NOT! LOL!!!!!!
Ed
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But, I will play your game:
Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
What? Do you see how this is worded? How is a person who claims to be an apostle tried?
The definition of an apostle does not negate Paul as an Apostle, nor does the mention of 12 apostles in Revelation negate Paul as an Apostle.
WHY do I say that?
Because THE TWELVE are in regards to JEWS ONLY. In Revelation you will see CLEARLY, of course, the mention of 12 tribes, and prophets (OLD TEST PROPHETS).
Just like THE PROPHETS are in regards to JEWS ONLY.
Paul was an Apostle to the GENTILES!
The Foundation of the Church is the PROPHETS and the Apostles with Jesus being the Cornerstone.
The GOSPELS are NOT FOR THE GENTILES. You noted that Jesus sent out the 72. What were the instructions?
DO NOT GO TO THE GENTILES. It is only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
JEWS vs. GENTILES. 12 Apostles (JEWS) vs. Many more than just “the twelve” (GENTILES).
Ed
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Ed
Back @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 3:12 PM, you write about…
Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
“Paul is indicating that he follows Christ, and in the same manner that he follows Christ, we should follow his lead. And I agree.”
I do NOT dis-agree – And to clarify “AS” I’m seeing it now…. Oy Vey!!!
First, the word, “follow.” Second, the words, “even as.”
“Follow” is Strongs #3402, and means “Imitate.”
“Even As” is Strongs #2531 and means “according to, as, how, when.”
Could Paul be ““Introduceing a Condition” here?
Be ye followers of me – Imitate me – “EVEN AS?” – “WHEN?”
Follow me, Imatate me – “EVEN AS” – I imitate Jesus.
Imatae me – “WHEN” – I imatate Jesus.
I do NOT think Paul is saying, like so many pastor/leaders say today…
Follow me – I’m the Leader. I’m the Boss. I lead, you follow. – You follow Me…
So, for me, the focus is still on Following Jesus, The “ONE” Leader, First.
So I can know WHEN Paul is following Jesus. Imatating Jesus.
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Ed
I’ve been told, folks are taught how to know “counterfeit money”
By handling The Real Thing “real money” “leagal money”….
Over and over, and over, and over again, and again, and… Because…
WHEN you know The Real Thing – The Phoney Thing feels different.
————
So, Today I recommend for WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
First – WE, have to spend time with Jesus. WE, have to get to know Jesus.
First – WE, have to be one of His Sheep and “Hear His Voice.” John 10:27
First – WE have to Follow Jesus for ourselves, and Serve Him. John 12:26
First – WE, “Observe” what Jesus taught His Disciples. Mat 28:19-20 KJV
So, WE, can GO, and teach ALL nations, what Jesus taught His Disciples.
Then WE, will know “IF” or “WHEN” Paul Follows Jesus. Imatates Jesus.
Or, “IF” or “WHEN” wanna-be pastor/leaders say they – Follow Jesus… 😉
Seems, In My Experience…
Most pastor/leaders *ignore” or *Twist* what Jesus taught His Disciples.
Yes – Imitate Jesus. – And – Imitate Paul, “WHEN” he is Imitating Jesus… 😉
So, WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His sons, His Disciples, His Kids…
Have to spend time with, Hear His Voice, know His Ways…
So, AS, WHEN, the phonies show up…
Your first reaction is – Hey – This, errr, stuff, ain’t the Jesus I know… 😉
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}
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ED
Jesus as man, came NOT to be served – but – to serve…
and to give His life a ransom for many. Mat 20:28 NASB
Jesus as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation…
And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.
So, Paul, Imitating Jesus, made himself a “Servant” to all.
NOT seeking his own profit, but the profit of many.
1 Cor 9:19
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself “Servant” to all.
1 Cor 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit,
but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
————
Jesus, as man, referred to himself as a “Servant.”
“I am among you as he that serveth”. Luke 22:27.
“The Son of man did NOT come to be served but to serve.” Mark 10:45.
So, Paul, Imitating Jesus as man, always referred to himself as “Servant.”
And – ALL of **His Disciples** Imitated Jesus as man,
ALL called themselves “Servants.” NOT one called them self “Leader.”
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ…
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ…
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ…
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God…
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God…
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant…
————
Jesus, said, He could do nothing of Himself. And was taught of the Father.
“but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” John 8:28
Paul, Imitating Jesus as man, said that “his gospel” was NOT of man,
he received it from God and he conferred NOT with flesh and blood.
Ga 1:11-16
…the gospel which was preached of me is NOT after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it,
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ
16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
immediately I conferred NOT with flesh and blood:
————–
Seems to me, IF WE, His Sheep, are Following Paul Following Jesus?
As they, Jesus and Paul received it? Directly from God? NO middle man?
Then WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, have to get it from God for ourselves…
Also… And NOT from man…
Just like Jesus as man, received it from God.
And, Just like Paul who “neither received it of man,” received it from God.
NO middle Man….
———-
Yes – Imitate Jesus.
And – Follow, Imitate Paul, “”AS,”“WHEN” Paul is Imitating Jesus… 😉
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Matthew Perri
Thank you for “Your” definition of “What is an Apostle?”
And – I do NOT agree – Because – you did NOT answer the question… 😦
And – Like Ed said about your response @ JUNE 3, 2014 @ 6:46 PM…
“That didn’t answer a thing. All you did was clarify WHO the Apostles were up thru Acts Chapter 1.”
“You neglected to clarify “WHAT IS AN APOSTLE?” 😦
And the verses you quoted needed lots of “YOUR” explanations… 😦
I asked for just what is “recorded in the text of the Bible”
And, you write in the 9th para. @ JUNE 3, 2014 @ 12:25 PM…
“Jesus poured his life into the 12 Apostles for 3 ½ years very personally training them to be the leaders of the church, and Jesus chose Peter as first among equals.”
NOPE – Looks like you are wrong again…
MP, I had such high hopes for you… 😉
“first among equals” is a term NOT found in “your” required sources…
“recorded in the text of the Bible.”
Seems you added to the scriptures – “first among equals”… 😉
Naughty – Naughty… 😉
And – “You” say Jesus trained 12 Apostles as “the leaders of the church,”
BUT – That is NOT – “recorded in the text of the Bible.”
Seems you added to the scriptures – “the leaders of the church,”… 😉
Naughty – Naughty… 😉
What is “recorded in the text of the Bible.” IS…
Jesus, teaching His Disciples, His Apostles, NOT to be called Leaders.
For you have “ONE” Leader, The Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB.
And NOT one of His Disciples called themselves Leader. Church Leader.
Even Peter, an apostle, called himself “Servant.” Go figure… 😉
2 Pet 1:1 – Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ…
NOT Peter, NOT The Bible, ever calls Peter, Leader, or, Leader of the church.
Kinda hard for a “Servant” to be “first among equals.” 😉
Seems you added that to the scriptures… 😉
Naughty – Naughty… 😉
NOPE – Looks like you are wrong again…
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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A Amos Love,
Fully agree with you!
Ed
________________________________
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Looking for Alex Grenier’s contact info…
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Here is Alex’s contact info: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/contact-me/
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I am sure that Julie Anne will be deleting your post when she sees it, but in the meantime, just let me say that you are a despicable human being, anonymous.
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Thanks, Marsha – I appreciate the extra set of eyes helping me when I miss something.
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Yay J.A.! Glad to see you deleted that.
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I was out at a restaurant when that comment came in and approved it when it just looked like someone ranting about church. Boy did I ever miss a lot – ha!
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Yeah, know for a fact well someone said were going to investigate Calvary Chapel. Yes, FINALLY, maybe will do documentary and finally expose the cult and ALL it’s abuses and noted who the religious Pharisee’s and Saducee’s who are defending the lie at any cost, wonder if in sin? They should take into consideration and expose those that are defending and see what into, their abuses, their sins, advice given to parishioner’s and their lifestyle (how well they live off the C.C. Evil empire). Will suggest that.
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I deleted a few comments here from a chronic troll. They slipped through moderation. ~ja
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Hi BOS
Thanks for the recommendation of “Apostolic Foundation by Arthur Katz”
Sorry, I only read the intro, but, I do NOT agree with Arthur Katz.
I found his book online…
https://archive.org/stream/ApostolicFoundationByArthurKatz/The%20Prophetic%20Call%20by%20Art%20Katz_djvu.txt
Arthur writes in the intro to his book… if the words “prophetic and apostolic” are “ruined, cheapened, made merchandise of, lose their meaning…”
“…then we have lost our foundation.”
“There are two great words that I guard with a fierce jealousy, namely, prophetic and apostolic. The church is “…built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. ..(Eph. 2:20b)”, and if those two words are ruined, cheapened, made merchandise of, lose their meaning or are made to stand for something that God
did not intend, then we have lost our foundation. If there is something flaky about our apostles and prophets, then what will the superstructure be if it is based on that foundation?”
————–
Arthur Katz is saying in his book, like many today, that “the apostles and prophets” are THE Foundation of The Church. And refers to Eph 2:20, written by Paul.
1 – But, Paul does NOT mention the word church in all of Eph 2. Hmmm? Where did Artur get that from if NOT from the Bible? What is being built in Eph 2, is a dwelling place of God. That would be… WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, His Temple, His House, His kids…
NOT a building people go to Sunday Morning. NOT a Denomination. NOT an Organization. NOT a 501 c 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation…
That the IRS calls chuch.
2 – Paul, who is an apostle, also wrote, in 1 Cor 3:9-11…
“as a wise master builder I have laid *The Foundation…”
“…which is Jesus Christ.”
Do WE, His Sheep, have Two Foundations?
1 – Jesus Christ? 2 – And “the apostles and profits?”
I’m-a-stickin-wit… There is only “ONE” Foundation.
For WE, His Temple, His House, His Building…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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BOS
I was also taught that the foundation of the church was…
the apostles and prophets… Oy Vey!!! 😦
But one day, while reading 1 Cor 3:9-11, I realized, I was led astray. – Again…
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
——-
Here, read for yourself, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV, Paul “Laid The Foundation.”
9 – We are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field,
you are God’s building.
10 – According to the grace of God which was given to me,
as a wise master builder I have laid “The Foundation,”
and another builds on it.
But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 – For NO other foundation can anyone lay
than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
———-
BOS, After you read, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV…
Who is, “The Foundation” of Paul, the apostle?
Who is, “The Foundation” of ALL the apostles and prophets?
———-
After I read, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV, “The Foundation” is {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
My understanding of Eph 2:20, was… errr… improved… 😉
———-
Here is how I now understand Eph 2:20…
Eph 2:19-22 NKJV
19 – Now, therefore, you are NO longer strangers and foreigners,
but fellow citizens with the saints
and members of the household of God,
2:20 a – having been built on the foundation
of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ
2:20 b – Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 – in whom the whole building, being joined together,
grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 – in whom you also are being built together
for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
———-
Wouldn’t *The Foundation* in Eph 2:20, be “Jesus Christ?”
Who is also, *The Chief Corner Stone?*
To match *The Foundation* in 1 Cor 3:9-11, “Jesus Christ?”
Which Paul, an apostle, and a master builder, laid?
———-
Arthur Katz says…
If “Apostles and Prophets“ are “ruined, cheapened, lose their meaning.”
“…then we have lost our foundation.”
NOPE – My Foundation promised to never leave me nor forsake me…
The “ONE” Foundation – The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Leader….
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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I first attended Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale in 1995, and got my first glimpse of Pastor Bob Coy. He reminded me of Dana Carey from SNL. I instantly took a liking to him, loved his sermons!
A friend had told me, that there were death threats against him, I don’t know if that was true or not, that sounded very strange. I eventually left Florida for California, but still studied the Bible under P.B.
Years go by, and I had planned on coming back to CCFL, and wanting to study with the women’s ministry and Diane Coy. On my birthday, in 2014, my life was forever changed by the devastating news of what P.B. had done.
At first, I was shocked, then angry. Here I studied and listened to this man speak the Word for over 20 years! Then hear he was cheating on Diane with several women and he was up to his eyeballs in porn.
His past was filled with that behaviour, but, I assumed he gave it up to follow Jesus.
Apparently I was wrong, the devil followed him to Florida. I wonder what caused him to not care about his wife and kids and do what he did, can you imagine the women who he bedded?
If any church leaders in this country ever let this man pastor again, I suggest running from the church, I certainly wouldn’t be able to ever trust him as a godly Preacher again.
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When I first heard Bob Coy preach as a guest at Lloyd Pulley’s church in the mid 90s I thought Bob was Las Vegas leftover from standup comedy, given his testimony. He wouldn’t have been like that if he were trained in homiletics at a seminary. (He wouldn’t have passed the hiring committee of any local church. But then again, CC pastors don’t apply–they found a church, then rule unopposed by eldership or laity.) Follow your money, fellow believers. If you don’t get a voice for the leadership’s accountability to you, then vote with your wallet and your backside! I left CC in 2000 after Lloyd’s preaching was getting spookily shaky over Y2K, and he was chalking up more air miles than a Madison Ave. executive!
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Wow, did Alex have to stop his Calvary Chapel Abuse site forever? Last couple times I tried I could not get it online. I suppose it must be because of how the lawsuit turned out. So sad.
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I don’t think he has permanently stopped it. He has had times where he steps away from it a bit. Right now he’s trying to stay focused on his upcoming court case. He’s fine, just deliberately minimizing distractions and keeping focus on important things.
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