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As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
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Warning: this is a heavy and disturbing article.
As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations. For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.
I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.
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But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?
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One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking. The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal. If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical. Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical. Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?
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As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc. What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.
One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.
I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.
Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses. Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew. This is going on elsewhere.
We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.
Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.
I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.
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Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm
“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.
I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?
Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.
Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.
Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am
Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.
Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced. We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:
After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.
Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:
December 30, 2013 at 12:27 pm
It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.
JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am
I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.
My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?
Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….
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I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement. Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening. So what is a godly response to ungodliness?
Exposure!
Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.
Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.
Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?
Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?
She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.
These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.
photo credit: bark via photopin cc
Updated note: Slight modification of title and removed key words See note in comments.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
No doubt such cases as you describe exist. But what the women who have spilled the beans on this “spanking” movement claim is that it was not a matter of consent in their cases. If they found this beating so enjoyable why did they leave the men who gave them what they wanted?
Not all women enjoy physical abuse–idiots reading 50 Shades of Grey notwithstanding.
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Rachel, it is not that the CDD women find the spankings so “enjoyable” per se. Rather, it is that the couple finds the entire experience erotic and they need a way to justify what most people would regard as a perversion or, at best, a fetish. It is part of their sexuality only they know that most people would view their particular preferences with a jaundiced eye. Accordingly, they have come up with this “what God commands” spin on it in an effort to justify what most people would think is rather bizarre behavior. If God did not “command” them to so engage, they would find some other rationale for what they are doing. They don’t enjoy the pain, per se. Rather they like the entire scene of humiliation, submission, “being punished” and then being loved or coddled afterwards. It turns them on – both of them. They put up with the pain in order to obtain the second benefits associated with it. The women who leave physically abusive men are not part of this mindset. They are involuntarily abused vs the CDD crowd to consent to the behavior for the secondary erotic gratification they gain. I have not read 50 Shades of Grey so I cannot comment as to this component of your post.
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LEB, I’m sure that some couples are like that, but what the article is talking about is abuse and domestic violence. Completely one-sided. I’m sure there are couples that enjoy anal sex. Couples. There are women who find it completely violating and degrading. So, for one, it may be within the proper bounds of marriage, and for the other it’s sexual abuse.
The background here is women who are taught patriarchy from the pulpit – that their husband is always right and that they are always wrong. They are saved through obedience and childbearing. Their close friends and their spiritual advisors all promote the same thing. It leaves them completely helpless – they think that something is wrong, but everyone they trust seems happy enough and doesn’t want to listen to them gossip about their husbands, etc.
I don’t think the wife is somehow contributing to the situation. She was told she’s a worthless sex slave. If she goes to the church, she knows that they will victim blame – they will try to dig up dirt on her, then use it to blackmail her, or they will say, “there are two sides to every story” and when her husband denies it, they’ll believe him. They will refuse to promise her protection should it happen again. This happens over and over again.
My situation is nothing to the extent, but my father emotionally abused me. He would spank me whenever I “back talked” – whether that was in front of my friends or in front of his friends or in front of my siblings. He completely humiliated me and treated me like I had no rights. The church observed bits and pieces of this and never stepped in. In fact, they repeatedly taught that we needed to “honor father and mother” and “obey our parents”. They taught no limits to that, so there were times I had to choose between humiliation in front of people or being spanked or yelled at. All the while we kept up appearances at church as much as possible, but even when we didn’t, the church completely backed the authority structure.
So, there it was. I knew I was utterly alone. There was no one I could trust to talk to about how I was treated. No one was safe, not my pastor, not my friends, not my teachers. I had to walk the knife edge of giving up my sense of humanity, or suffering whatever. Most of this was subconscious – there were those points I just knew I couldn’t give in, and there were many points where I could go through the motions without feeling like I was giving something essential up.
I put as much distance as I could while still wearing the mask of honoring and obeying. When I thought there was enough distance, I confided in a pastor some of the lesser stuff, and I got back complete affirmation of my father and rejection of my own assessment – that I must obey no matter how personally degrading something was – as long as it was “Biblical lawful”. That put the nail in the coffin of my old church background. I knew I could never heal as long as the church sided with my abuser.
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Mark, Your very moving narrative is yet one more reason why many people, myself included, have virtually no use for the church in modern society. You provide an excellent case study of what happens when this sort of dogma is taken to an extreme. Hopefully you grew into adulthood and escaped the trap where you found yourself ensnared. Hopefully, healing has begun. Indeed, it is hard to heal when you have such grave wounds fostered upon you and then by people you loved and trusted. Healing is a long process and you may never completely recover from this trauma but hopefully you are making progress. It is hard to forgive and let go of anger towards people who abuse us esp when these are the very people who are suppose to love and protect you. It is, thankfully, in the past for you now and you no longer have to endure the humiliation and pain which plagued you during your youth. It will be even harder to let go of the hostile emotions and you feel towards the various persons involved. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves not the persons who wronged us.
Your situation is not all that different from the spanked wives. In their case, the couple seeks justification through religion for their out-of-mainstream erotic preferences. They use religion to justify it so they will not have to view themselves as somewhat sexually deviant. In your case, the underlying principle is the same. Your father had sadistic tendencies and enjoyed humiliating and abusing you. He enjoyed hurting others. One does not, however, like to view himself in such a light so he contrives a way to justify it – once again using religion. He was sadistic and he sought to justify this evil via shrouding the behavior under the guise of religion. The church elders and authorities, for their part, were complicit – accessories to the abuse, as it were. There is no justification for what they did. You know that and i know that.
Your job now is to put all of that injustice behind you and move forward. It won’t be easy. It sounds like the wounds are still quite fresh on your mind. You have crawled out of the abyss and now you have the freedom to move forward. Healing will be long and difficult – with many setbacks – but it can be accomplished.
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LEB, “Your situation is not all that different from the spanked wives. In their case, the couple seeks justification through religion for their out-of-mainstream erotic preferences.”
I disagree. If the spanked wife is like me, she feels that there is no way out. She is completely helpless. It’s not a turn on. It’s not erotic. It’s humiliating and degrading.
I didn’t “choose” to get spanked in front of my friends. Just because these wives are legally adults doesn’t mean that they are emotionally mature enough to grasp what is happening. I think someone here posted a video about cults and manipulative control. The point of the video was that, people who are manipulatively controlled don’t realize they’re being controlled.
So, yes, a woman who is not being manipulated who consents to being spanked is receiving something positive from it, but a woman whose sense of self-image and self-worth has been so destroyed that she thinks being spanked is a just punishment has no ability to truly consent, whether she’s 16 or 60.
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LEB, “He was sadistic and he sought to justify this evil via shrouding the behavior under the guise of religion.”
I wouldn’t say he was sadistic. He found a church that matched his theology, and that church praised him for having his children under control, even approving the external means. I think there are men and women so deceived by theological systems that they call good evil and evil good. It’s even more complex because a half-truth is always more compelling than an outright lie. Men and women are drawn to patriarchy because they see the effects of “lax” parenting, and the half-truth hook that lax parenting enables delinquency gets them to swallow the line and sinker that outlines physical and emotionally abusive parenting as the Biblically ordained method.
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Mark, Remember one important difference. You were a child with no rights and no power. You were very literally trapped in that situation. There is no need to obtain consent to spank a child. The child is truly helpless until he grows up and leaves the home where he is being abused. The CDD wife must agree to this abuse and she is free to withdraw consent at any time. The husband who abuses his wife in this manner, absent her consent, could very well end up in jail. For that reason the Church authorities put a great deal of emphasis on the wife “submitting.” They know full well that if she does not do so, the husband will be in peril legally.
Now, I will grant you that there may well be some women who fit the scenario you describe. For most, however, such is not the case. My own grandmother was the victim of domestic abuse at the hands of her violent husband. One important factor to consider is that in cases of true abuse where the husband beats the wife, it is typically not spanking. They punch them, kick them, slap them, hit them with objects like 2 x 4 boards, etc. They knock out teeth, break ear drums, blacken eyes, punch or kick in the abdomen and perpetrate all manner of injuries. They don’t usually spank their wives, per se. The spanking for the CDD crowd has an erotic element although they are loathe to admit it. You would not see any of them advocating blackening an eye or kicking the wife in the abdomen yet these are very common behaviors in true abusive, non-consensual marriages. If you have ever read some of the posts by the DD or CDD woman, it becomes readily apparent that they enjoy this lifestyle. In fact, they describe scenarios wherein they provoke the husband so he will punish them. It is almost as if they are play-acting, at times. They use God as an excuse for something they want to do, anyway. A whole lot of couples engage in these activities without any basis in religion.
In the scenario you describe, you were truly helpless. You were a child, dependent on your parents. You had not realistic way out and you certainly were not intentionally provoking your father so he would spank or otherwise humiliate you. More likely, your father had a violent, hair-trigger temper and it took next to nothing to provoke him. You don’t mention whether or not he drank alcohol but if he did, doing so would further lower his inhibitions. If he also abused alcohol, it would take even less to provoke him. You were suffering in a very real sense. These women are not suffering. They gleefully chat with one another on forums about how happy they are in these relationships and how wonderful is their marriages, as a result. They share all the gory details with one another including how great the sex was afterwards. You, by contrast, liked nothing about the lifestyle you were forced to endure. You would most certainly ended the abuse if you could. Certainly, you would not chat with your friends about it, describing all the humiliating details you experienced at the hand of your father. It was a source of shame for you.
Perhaps a few women are affected in the way you suggest. The majority of them like the lifestyle and they willingly share the details, comparing notes with one another. Worse, they believe they are getting brownie points with God for engaging in these behaviors.
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Mark, regarding your previous comment, I am certain there was an element of what you describe on the part of your father. Absolutely the people who swallow hook, line and sinker the various fundamentalist theology are not the rocket scientists of the world. No one with true critical thinking skills would buy into this garbage. BUT, having said that, I do also believe your father enjoyed what he was doing. It is one thing to spank a child because you believe doing so is in the child’s best interest. It is quite another to repeatedly humiliate the child and reign terror upon him in the manner you have described. I would say, based on what you describe, that your father fell to the extreme end of the spectrum, even given the circles in which he traveled. Yes, of course, they buy into this stuff and yes they are not very bright, but part of the reason the theology appeals to them is because it allows them a “legitimate” avenue to do something which they want to do, anyway. Odds are that even if your father were an atheist, he would have abused you. Both my grandfather and his youngest son were violent and abusive men. Neither one of them ever attended church nor endorsed an theology. Some very intelligent persons can be violent. It is not only the simple-minded who abuse. It is just that the smarter people are less likely to use God as an excuse for what they are doing.
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Are you sure she is truly free? Is she free like another type of abused, controlled spouse?
This thread gives me the heebie jeebies but generally in these ‘Christian’ situations, the wife been told she is subject to the husband, to obey him in all things, to keep house, children, etc, or she does not please God – not man, GOD. If the man has chosen this, she is basically in the same situation as any other abused wife, whether she has been coerced into signing a piece of paper or not. So is this truly analogous to an S&M situation where two parties enter in? Sometimes maybe, but I suspect often no. That spiritual element is added part you are discounting.
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LEB, “Absolutely the people who swallow hook, line and sinker the various fundamentalist theology are not the rocket scientists of the world. No one with true critical thinking skills would buy into this garbage. BUT, having said that, I do also believe your father enjoyed what he was doing.”
My dad was a Ph.D. scientist with excellent critical thinking skills.
I think you are ignoring or unaware of how coercive peer pressure is, and especially how coercive it is when church leaders and spiritual fathers who led you to Christ, then tell you how Christ says you should act. My father grew up in an emotionally abusive home, and when he became a Christian, he put two and two together – that he should continue the same treatment, except now it was a spiritual duty to grow the next generation to obey Christ.
There’s a pretty well-known psychological experiment that was done many years ago, called the Milgram experiment. It was set up like a quiz show, where the subject was told that they had to administer a shock to the contestant if he got the answer wrong. The “contestant” was an actor paid to play the part, but would act as if he were being shocked. For each wrong answer, the voltage was increased, with the dial showing levels that were mildly painful, severely painful and even deadly. The question was whether the subject could be coerced, based on the situation, to administer a deadly shock. These were all normal people, not sadistic or violent or whatever, yet 65% of them administered what they thought was a lethal dose of electricity based on told that they had to follow the rules, and by coercion. You can easily find articles about this study.
If 65% of normal people can be convinced to kill someone else based on a brief situation set up to remove their autonomy (this was designed to figure out why soldiers would gas innocent Jews), then your assumption that every adult is fully “willing” to participate in an abusive relationship is fundamentally flawed. People are born and raised in a situation that does exactly this. “Spare the rod, spoil the child!” “Whoever spares the rod hates his son!”
What I’m saying is that many churches fall into cult status by using these sorts of emotional, psychological and spiritual manipulation techniques. The victims of these cults believe that it is God’s will for them to either abuse or submit to abuse, and those that show any signs that they aren’t in lock step get publicly humiliated, ostracized by their community, or even told they’re on the path to eternal torment.
Patriarchal cult churches teach women that they are sinful and worthless. Their only path to salvation is a life full of self-denial and self-abuse, best done at the hands of a husband taught to be a “godly leader of his home” (i.e. abusive). If they complain, they are obviously in rebellion and must be disciplined. They are taught to treat their every thought with suspicion and their husband/leaders thoughts with blind trust.
CDD is a mark of a patriarchal cult. One where the women are so beaten down and humiliated that they accept this as God’s will to bring them to himself.
If you can’t accept that normal people are coercively manipulated to do horrible things like this, then you are going to be stuck blaming the wrong people.
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I heard that some fundamentalist preacher took the wifely submission thing way overboard and said that although abortion is murder, if your hubby tells you to have one it’s your Christian duty as his wife to obey. (It may have been Bill Gothard.)
Gothard also lit into Abigail from the Old Testament because she got out from her abusive, drunken hubby’s authority in order to keep Israel’s future king from sinning and killing a lot of people including the husband she wouldn’t “submit unto.” God had a funny way of punishing her too; He smote that creepy Nabal she was stuck with and the widowed Abigail wound up married to King David. Woohoo! 🙂
The Bible also tells us to submit to government officials and masters (employers) but it’s understood that there are limits for our obedience to these authorities. Ditto for submitting to husbands or parents.
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Mark, You make excellent points. Absolutely your father should have known better. He had achieved enough to demonstrate a good solid mind. One thing I do wish to bring up is that abuse tends to perpetuate abuse. Persons who are abused by their parents commonly grow up to be abusive parents, themselves. My guess is that whether or not he became a Christian, he would have been abusive with you. Now having said that, I am the last person to defend Christianity. It is riddled with nonsense and dogma which defies any measure of common sense. I am at a loss to understand how so many people can actually buy into this stuff. Additionally, your citing the Milgram study as an excellent example to support the points you are making. I teach several courses at the university level which include the Milgram study in the course content. It was, as you know, a study in authority and absolutely it stemmed from the post-WWII sentiment to understand the Nazi atrocities. It is also cited as one of the most glaring cases of abuse in research wherein subjects were actually harmed via their participation. As you pointed out, they believed they killed someone and it devastated them. Today we have a whole system of IRB (Internal Review Boards) designed to guard against such research. Another interesting study for you to look up, if you have not already done so, is the Sanford Prison Experiment. It is truly mind-blowing as well.
Please do not interpret my commentaries as any attempt to defend Christianity or the patriarchs who support it. I am but pointing out that there is more to this story than meets the eye. There are some hidden agendas on the part of the participants. It is fine with me if you want to cast culpability upon the Christian Church for putting forth such ridiculous dogma. I simply want you to be aware that there is more to this whole thing than meets the eye. Some of the “victims” are willing participants because they derive secondary gain from the whole thing. Read some of the postings of the women (and it is primarily the women who post) who participate in this nonsense as they discuss it with one another. They typically share with one another all the gory details of their lifestyle and it becomes quickly apparent that they are willing participants. There is an element of theater to the whole thing.
When you are dealing with truly abusive men who victimize their hapless wives or girlfriends, you will not hear of much spanking. Rather you will hear of punching, kicking in the abdomen or back, knocked out teeth, black eyes, etc. Gang members who discover their girl friends have cheated on them, shave the woman’s head and eyebrows after which they proceed to beat them up, typically with their fists or by kicking the women once they fall to the ground. They are not adverse to hitting the women with 2 x 4s. They do not, however, ever spank them. Spanking and humiliation has an erotic component for these CDD people or any DD folks. That being said, you are absolutely correct in holding that the Christian Church puts forth absolutely asinine dogma and the patriarchs who run the organization have caused immeasurable harm to many people. At least they are no longer burning the women at the stake and torturing them with absolutely diabolical means in order to elicit confessions for witchcraft. I suppose, in that light, we can view the CDD as progress.
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Rachel,
Again not to defend these idiots – I think Christian dogma is riddled with asinine ideology BUT it does give the woman an out in instances such as you mention. They are allowed to disobey if the husband is commanding them to do something contrary to the will of God. They are told that they must obey God before man so that is their out.
Ask yourself this: exactly how bright can these folks really be if – in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary – they believe the earth is 6000 years old. We are not talking Rhodes scholars here. I don’t fault them for their lack of intellect. That part is not their fault and we folks who do have the brains should be grateful for the straws we drew in the lottery of genetics. I criticize not the gullible who, in good faith, bought into such nonsense, ones but rather the patriarchs and other church leaders who exploit these folks and lead them down the garden path, as it were.
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There certainly are a lot of women supporting this nonsense. I have been reading a book by a preacher relating church members who DO abuse their wives and children in ways you have described.
I studied psychology in college and am familiar with the Stanford and Milgram Studies.
As far as human foolishness, gullibility and cruelty go I don’t find anything in the Bible to contradict that. Quite the opposite!
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Rachel,
They also apply their religious dogma selectively to justify whatever they want to do. They take bits and pieces out of context and use that information in selective circumstances. They have also lost sight of the fact that the Bible has been translated countless times of the ages is is subject to much interpretation. For example “virgin” as in Virgin Mary is an interpretation of what is actually, in the original language, “young girl.’ Young girl and virgin are not identical concepts although many young girls are, in fact, virgins. There is no need to add the concept of being a virgin in a case where one is speaking of a youthful female. She may well have been a virgin when she married her husband but my guess is that she conceived a child in the usual means, namely through insemination by her husband, regardless of her age. Much is lost when these doctrines are translated countless times over. And just for the record, it IS possible to be a virgin and be inseminated by a man. Sperm have been know to travel up from the inner thigh if so deposited there. Not at all common but it has happened if the semen is close to the vaginal opening. There are a whole lot of people in existence whose father withdrew from their mother but they got conceived of just the same. It happens. Additionally, if sperm should happen to be a a man’s fingers and he inserts said fingers into a woman, sperm can be introduced in that way as well.
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As Harry Seabrook’s former wife, I want to thank you for publishing this.
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You’re welcome, Stephanie. It needed to come out.
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So a few questions?
If it was Muslim or Hindus would you be against it?
Why is it wrong for spanking in a Christsin couple relationship but a older man can use spanking to keep a younger man in line? If the two gay men identify as Christians does it suddenly become wrong too?
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I find it wrong in all circumstances. I would call the police to report assault/battery if I saw any adult strike another adult.
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When you posted this five years ago (almost six now) it was a “dark secret.” Not much could be found on the internet. It was such an alien concept it was hard to believe, at least for me. But Google it today and loads of stuff pops up. Some of it is weirdly positive. It’s especially nutty seeing women post positive comments about wife spanking. I’m not talking about just the kinky-sex kind. I mean the “discipline” kind.
I had my doubts about RC Jr spanking his wife. It just seemed far fetched, even slanderous. But in the years following a few more things came to light that gave further insight into Sproul’s true character. There’s that Ashley Madison account thing proving he was okay with hooking up with married women. Then came his drunk driving with kids in the car felony conviction. There’s Sproul’s track record of spiritual abuse, tax fraud, alcoholism, abusing opioids, etc. Recently I read about RC Jr physically abusing his children from the time they were babies. I’d heard about blanket training before but didn’t fully grasp how horrifically abusive it is. Add it all up and it more than proves that RC Jr is exactly the kind of man who’d spank his wife. Time and RC Jr’s own crooked reputation have more than proven your wife spanking story credible.
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Is this supposed to be a Christian forum?
I honestly can’t tell.
Happy commercialized holidays to all you secularists.
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Rachel? You’ve had many comments here. I’m surprised by your comment – and that you commented on such an old post.
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Julie Anne, i had happily forgotten about this one. Ugh. (occasionally some posters reveal themselves as rather judgmental and I think I’ve seen it before from this one unfortunately).
Although it does give me an opportunity to wish you a (late) happy solstice!
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Sorry Julie Anne.
My rant was in response to an old comment. Not Greg’s.
Leb was into kinks and victim blaming it seems. Rereading his crap angered me. Apparently thought this was funny.
Merry Christmas to yourself and any others who still celebrate this holiday.
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Ahhhhhh, thank you for explaining. Now it makes sense. Lol. Merry Christmas to you, too! 🎄
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i have been researching and studying patriarchy vs complementarianism vs egalitarainism (mutuality) Here are the conclusions I have come to…
1- Patriarchy IS biblical—It is biblical in that it is recorded in the bible as the way people lived back then with man head of the house, women in subjection to men, etc.
BUT the Bible in no way endorses patriarchy as the way to be a good christian. Just as rape and slavery are in the bible does not mean it is condoned.
Christianity once believed the sun revolved around the earth and anyone who thought different was called a heretic and sometimes put to death. Even when Galileo offered scientific proof, he was arrested. We no longer believe this way. ——Women also once could not own land, inherit family fortunes or vote up until about 100 years ago. And we no longer believe this way either.
2- More women are abused under pat/comp because the abuser uses scripture to hide behind.
3- Depending on whose patriarchal advice one follows there are many more restrictions and rules on women then there are on men, including education and careers being restricted or outright sinful for a woman. And those rule often conflict which causes a whole other bunch of problems, is going to college sin or not, is working outside the home sin or not, can a woman be a doctor instead of just a nurse. When does it become ok or not sin for a a woman to work outside the home (before marriage ? , before children? after children leave the home? When a husband dies, becomes sick or abandons the family?) How can something be a sin then get a pass to not be a sin? According to which pat/comp believer you talk to, it may or may not be sin. Very confusing. And very micromanaged.
4—- Jesus himself talked one on one with women–something forbidden in those days as women were slightly above slaves in society. Many women are listed in the bible as having leadership positions and working alongside Jesus, the disciples and apostles–women were the first to see the empty grave of Jesus and among the first to see him after rising from the grave.
5- in Christianity, a relationship with God through Jesus is a one on one affair…an individual seeks God’s will and direction in their life…they make seek advice and counseling from others but it is ultimately between God and that person to work it out. (yes, wrestling, questioning, making mistakes are all part and parcel of a Christian life)
6- Under patriarchy a man is told he is responsible for his wife’s spiritual growth, leading her, directing her and even disciplining her, which puts an unfair burden on an imperfect person who has enough trouble with their own relationship with God.
there are many more reasons i can include but long comments can be boring. r
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