Both wise and entertaining. Hard to watch that and think that any of these doctrines are essential to the faith – whether right or wrong and in whatever degree.
If Scripture isn’t any more perspicuous (clear) to me than the theologians who use those kinds of words, does that mean I couldn’t possibly be a Christian? How could I possibly be amongst the elect if I have to look up words like tetragrammaton (actually, τετραγράμματον)? After all, isn’t it all about holding to right doctrine? Isn’t thinking what the experts think a precondition of being Jesus’ brother or sister? How can I hold to right doctrines if I don’t even understand their names?
I mean really, my wife would not think I knew her very well if I never bothered to learn her name. But then again, again; that’s a different kind of knowing, a relational kind of knowing. Kind of like knowing Jesus.
This is interesting. I originally found the link at a Reconstructionist site. I just checked out Voddie Baucham’s Facebook page and he had it posted yesterday, too, and currently 167 people have shared it. Voddie said: “gotta love a little Reformed Baptist humor ;D” https://www.facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10151987029857550
Ah, I see the strategy now. Make knowing God so complex, you’d have to go to seminary before being declared qualified to even talk about it. All the rest aren’t qualified to discuss the doctrine! It’s just not loving. See how they argue amongst themselves on the 5 points of Calvinism, tongue in cheek of course! As those in authority would say, the sheep need to be led. Genius! I say: spiritually superior much?
Someone mentioned the poor children having to sit through it. Watch, they aren’t even paying attention.
An observation about children in family integrated churches. They are required to sit silently, sometimes for over an hour. So what are they being taught & what are they learning? The “good” kids who “sit nicely” actually learn quickly to tune it out. They sit nicely by daydreaming or coloring (God forbid the parents take coloring away). Or they’re disciplined. Rarely are they intently listening, nor do they ask questions. They learn to be seen but not heard. They learn to be told. Think about it…
It’s certainly good for children to know how to sit nicely & quietly. But shouldn’t everyone, even children, be engaged & learning about God in church? Should children learn how to think & ask questions? Oh, but maybe they are learning exactly what the spiritual authorities want them to learn? How to sit still & be quiet?
When I was at church this morning, we were discussing this:
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:26-31, ESV)
There are those who come here who don’t want to hear how this doctrine may have aided in spiritually wounding someone. They can’t believe anyone would have the gall to even question the doctrine. They want all questioning of it to stop immediately.
I can’t help thinking of certain churches & “spiritual authorities” that think questions only come from heretics or feminists.
I think there’s a difference between 1 & 2:
1. Indoctrination: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrinate
2. Teaching children what we want them to know while allowing & encouraging questions/feedback/thinking of their own. Interaction, dialogue, honest answers like “I don’t know. Let’s find out if we can.” Doesn’t this type of teaching apply to grown adults as well?
It seems that some adults & parents think the only way to teach is by indoctrination. Indoctrination sounds a lot like manipulation, coersion, force to me. This is not the way & will rarely produce the desired results. It usually doesn’t stick for the long-term when put to the test.
I think it’s method #1 that doesn’t work & is to blame. Public school, college,
band, sports, careers, etc. aren’t the problem. Those are just the litmus stick tests. No matter how much God’s sovereignty & man’s zero-choice is preached, each WILL choose. Parents fool themselves if they think indoctrination will produce good long-term results. Even in the last post, the young man conceded to his parents… but it hurt him.
A Mom: I read your word “indoctrination” and it reminded me that I wanted to look up the movie Indoctrination. Go check out who is involved in this movie: http://indoctrinationmovie.com/about/ Wow!!!
Oh, it looks like my friends at Wartburg Watch did a great article on this movie in 2011: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/21/indoctrination-and-the-blame-game/ This is all connected with the key players in the Homeschool Movement of course. Doug Phillips and his dad, Howard, Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, Kevin Swanson, R.C. Sproul Jr., Gary North, Geoff Botkin, etc. These guys are sure into emotional hype and “indoctrination.”
And like I said, I found this video on a Reconstructionist website. If you remember, when “Chalcedon Foundation” who later acknowledged to be “Martin Selbrede, the Vice President of Chalcedon Foundation, first came to the blog and started commenting, he was speaking in college-level vocabulary and I asked him to bring it down a few notches. Look at the words in the video on this article – all 3 and 4-syllable words that are rarely used.
::::sarcasm:::: Yea, because having a relationship with Jesus requires going through all of these 3 and 4-syllable hoops to get there.
JA, OMG (G=goodness). Birds of a feather with the same agenda flock together. This is good to know. Before your blog I had never heard of Botkin, Scott Brown, Kevin Swanson. I knew who Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, RC Sproul Jr were.
I’ve learned so much, thanks to you & your commenters! I am seeing a bigger picture & patterns are emerging. Who’s indoctrinating whom?
About the movie itself, I heard about it at one point & looked for it on youtube but didn’t find it so I never bothered after that. If it’s available to watch somewhere, like on vimeo or youtube, I’d watch it.
A Mom: I totally agree with you! It is sad that these children are raised to simply sit still and be quiet in church. I doubt any of them have a positive view of God or worship. I know as a kid I would’ve gone crazy sitting that long in church without a book to read or a picture to color! And if these people really think that by doing that they will not grow older to be able to sit in church, think again! I, on my own, decided to put away the books and crayons and listen to the sermons when I felt like I was ready, which was at a surprisingly young age (especially considering all the teenagers out there that don’t really pay attention). Not only that, but because my parents made sure church was an uplifting and positive experience, I wanted to learn more about God!
And then to not only torture them when they’re small, but then when they’re older, they simply have to blindly accept everything being told without thinking about it for themselves? All that creates is a bunch of kids who will grow up to never be leaders for Christ in the world because they won’t have the skills to be able to do it. Sad.
Oh and Julie Anne…..I have absolutely no idea what they are saying in this video. It’s like a different language to me.
JA, Your blog has helped me think through things. What I believe, how I decide, etc. And the thank you also goes to each brave individual who has shared their experiences, both through posts & through their comments. They’ve been so helpful to me & I am 100% confident there are many others out there who would say the same.
I’ve changed. I drank the kool-aid for a short while, which was way too long, I’m embarrassed to say. This blog has helped me see how loveless & bad it really was. And that’s a good thing! Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You matter so much. Thank you for standing for your convictions, even if it meant being sued. How difficult it must have been. You have triumphed through it & you will continue to. You are helping & encouraging people to think through their journeys as well.
I hope you & your family have a wonderful Christmas. Tell them thanks for sharing you & your investigative reporting with us this past year. Love & (hugs).
This is the weirdest thing how your “indoctrination” word triggered the name of that movie and now I am finding all of the Reconstructionist connections. We’ve got the big names here: Gary North and Howard Phillips – even Samuel Blumenfeld. I heard Samuel Blumenfeld speak at a homeschool conference in Maine around 1991.
Check out this article. You can see Chalcedon Foundation (Reconstructionist organization founded by Rushdoony) promoted Blumenfeld because of his message against public education: http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9501/chalcedon.html
Wow – and I thought Samuel Blumenfeld was only about the phonics program he taught. Check out this quote by him:
“”The Christian leaders of tomorrow must base their own careers on a Biblical imperative to restore America to its Christian roots. They must be fruitful and multiply. And we see this happening, especially in the growth of homeschooling families, where sometimes the norm is to have six, ten, or even more children. Humanists who don’t choose to strictly limit their families through birth control are murdering their children through abortion. But Christians love their children, and understand fruitfulness as a blessing from the Lord.
The only way to victory is through a Biblical imperative that compels Christians to build a society that honors God. That is the challenge facing all American Christians today.” ~ Samuel L. Blumenfeld”
He was one of the first speakers I ever heard at a homeschool conference. He seemed old and kind of grumpy then and I wondered why a guy like him was trying to convince us moms to teach his phonics program. Now I see there was a bigger agenda. His educational credentials was just the hook.
Thank you, A Mom, for your sweet note. It’s one big group here who keeps this thing going and I’m so appreciative of people like you and others who contribute. I steal my ideas from you all (just as you, A Mom, got me going on that Indoctrination move.) This is iron sharpening iron. I think we’re all done with the KoolAid here. KoolAid is for kids.
Merry Christmas!
“I steal my ideas from you all (just as you, A Mom, got me going on that Indoctrination move.)”
JA, Don’t thank me, thank Under the Radar. That commenter got me into a discussion about doctrine. From that I started thinking certain doctrines really should be called “indoctrination” instead based on how they’re taught. lol
Seriously though, discussion & conversation with those we don’t agree with can be helpful in providing “light-bulb” moments. 🙂
A wise man once pointed out to me that Jesus told us to become “like little children” to enter the kingdom of heaven. In his opinion, if you were wrapped up in a bunch of stuff that a 5- or 6-year-old couldn’t understand, it was probably wrong and/or unnecessary. How perfectly that fits here.
JA (22, 6:31pm) Look at that, 2 women and 26 men interviewed in a documentary about k-12 education. Because we all know that grade school teaching is a man’s profession, whether in public, private, or home. Pffft.
I don’t think it’s that tough to figure out. Neo-Calvinist leaders/authors (men) love to portray themselves as well-educated and hyper-spiritual, using biiiiig spiritual words, churning out book after book, trying to get a foothold on being important to other men in this movement. You DO know what these terms mean….you just call them by their normal English names or descriptions. I just noticed a book published on Keswick theology; I was surprised to learn I already knew what that was, just didn’t know it had a fancy name. Only in a reformed community group will you hear: He’s Pelagian! That’s Arminian! Give it a rest, guys.
Indoctrination Movie: The 1st person listed under “crew” is J. Fernandez, Director / Producer / Cinematographer / Editor / Screenwriter. He teaches a class at:
New Geneva Christian Leadership Academy.
From their homepage, “May it be used by the Lord to the advancement of Reformed and Theonomic truth.” Dr. Daniel F.N. Ritchie, B.A., D.Min., Author of, “A Conquered Kingdom”
I’m having a hard time keeping up with the word theonomy. I found this at Wikipedia: the idea, espoused by Christian Reconstructionists, that Mosaic law should be observed by modern societies. I’m a little worried by what that means… stoning?
There’s an actual Reformed college longing for a modern-day Geneva, a church/state in America, education through… indoctrination. How ironic. That’s quite an agenda. Those fire pits on campus look awfully big to me. You say the ovens are for cooking pizzas? Why are there stones laying around everywhere? (just some comic relief)
We have parents who are running away in fear from bad AND are running in the opposite direction toward… horribly bad, IMO. We don’t want to run like madmen & madwomen away from a burning house AND leap instead into a half-frozen lake. Let’s stop, drop & roll & then sit & think before leaping.
The college is not accredited and look what it says to homeschoolers:
Homeschool Applicants
New Geneva encourages enrollment of students who have been home-schooled. In fact New Geneva began with Home Educated students in mind. While some religious colleges look skeptically at home-schooling, and many public institutions erect difficult procedural barriers to admission, New Geneva enthusiastically welcomes home Educated children from Christian families. In the application process, we simply ask that the prospective student send us any and all information that he believes is relevant to assessment, not only of academic skill, but also of potential contribution to the advancement of the Kingdom of God. See Admissions Policy above.
There is a Daniel and Joshua Horn who teach history. I wonder if they are related to the Jeff Horn who is provisional elder at Boerne Christian Assembly (must have taken Doug Phillips’ place). http://boernechristianassembly.org/about/
The same theology that has filled mass graves for centuries never looked so cute. Pray for our Louisville mission trip–we are taking this fight to the streets. Going after our young people with their sanctified communism is where I draw the line.
Julie Ann, until your blog I had never heard of any of these people or that there were so many problems being brought to the forefront. I have only heard of the Calvinism and the Tetragrammaton. Calvanism simply because I looked it myself and the Tetragrammaton because I use a devotional titled “Praying the names of God” and my husband is Jewish. I feel so sorry for those poor little kids who had to sit through that entire song.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church where women’s only place was in the home and my thirst for knowledge was not look upon well at all. The pastor of my church did not appreciate me asking questions or even contradicting him with the Bible on the women in the home thing. I always knew what my childhood church taught was somehow not right and it wasn’t until I was in college that I was able to put my finger on much of the problematic perspectives. You see my parents always taught me to question everything anyone says and to align it with the Bible myself. My dad always said, “never take what the pastor says as the truth because after all he is human and can and will make mistakes”. I live by that to this day and will teach my children the same and it is extremely encouraging to see so many people, women especially, who are no longer afraid and are speaking out, like you.
I just remembered something. The associate pastor at my former church is also the youth leader. Last year one of the lectures he gave to the 6th to 12 graders was called Combating Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. It just means the belief that God is there whenever you need him and the goal in life is to feel good. But I’m sure it made him sound super smart to a bunch of kids.
Yep, after all the ‘adult humor’ their children ask them, “What’s Christmas all about!” Did you notice that at the end of the video?
The message of Christmas should warm you hears and souls, and yet the important stuff they sung about? It went right over their kids heads. How effective.
Ah, I see the strategy now. Make knowing God so complex, you’d have to go to seminary before being declared qualified to even talk about it. All the rest aren’t qualified to discuss the doctrine! It’s just not loving. See how they argue amongst themselves on the 5 points of Calvinism, tongue in cheek of course! As those in authority would say, the sheep need to be led. Genius! I say: spiritually superior much?
“The only way to victory is through a Biblical imperative that compels Christians to build a society that honors God. That is the challenge facing all American Christians today.” ~ Samuel L. Blumenfeld”
And after the Revolution (and Purges), We WILL Achieve True Communism!
Jkpvarin refers to a lecture given to 6th to 12 graders (say what?) called: Combating Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.
Among other passages that come to mind, Isaiah 61 assures us that our Lord binds up the brokenhearted. Sounds therapeutic to me. These people must be using a translation that omits the word “up.” They are experts at binding the brokenhearted, and everybody else over whom they have any influence.
“Martin Selbrede aka “Chalcedon Foundation” is on the New Geneva advisory board”
It’s upsetting, but this news doesn’t surprise.
I remember spending the time slogging thru his extra long responses to the simple questions. I remember he repeatedly mentioned his busy schedule. I thought, if that’s true, why not get right to the point of it then? And with simple words while at it? His sesquipedialian loquaciousness was a red flag for me. Also, when someone dances their denials around in circles there might be a problem.
JA, This is exactly what we need. Evidence. And they’re not going to give it to us. We need to go out & get it & connect the dots ourselves. And the connections & players are massive. We need to be careful what we get into & follow.
It’s like a Monet painting. May look great from afar, but up close it’s a hot mess.
BTW, Martin would probably love this video. It’s all grandiloquence.
Ok, – that list of people:
Marshall Foster
Scott Brown
RC Sproul, Jr.
Israel Wayne
Kelly Crawford
Ken Ham
I’m seeing all of those people (with the exception of Kelly Crawford) on Reconstructionist sites. When I looked up Kelly Crawford, she is a quiver full mom who lost her home in a tornado a few years ago. Her blog site is: Generation Cedar – – “generation” is buzzword in Reconstruction. She interviewed with Kevin Swanson on his Generations Radio Broadcast.
“This is all connected with the key players in the Homeschool Movement of course. Doug Phillips and his dad, Howard, Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, Kevin Swanson, R.C. Sproul Jr., Gary North, Geoff Botkin, etc.”
I want to throw up. These are the people who have heavily influenced our homeschool and our family for the past decade. Our state homeschool organization, even our church, invited a number of them to speak over the years. Stamp of approval! How could we go wrong?
How did we get pulled into this? They fed our insecurities and built on our fears (sort of like Dr. Spock — didn’t he make a fortune with his baby book? I remember my mom telling me that his advice didn’t make sense to her), They said they were selling hope, when what they really were selling was despair and defeat.
Not blaming them for my misfortune. I’m responsible for the messages I listen to, for being pulled away from the Bible and letting people who sounded confident pull the wool over my eyes. I’m much less trusting now, but still feeling at a loss.
Exactly, Refugee. It’s pretty sick. We assumed that if they said “Christian,” they would be like us – Christian. They are obsessed with their brand of “theologians” Calvin and Rushdoony. I have been pouring over their websites these last weeks (that’s how I came across the video in this article), they quote Rushdoony and Calvin more than scripture. The scripture they quote is primarily Old Testament. You rarely read “Jesus.” This is some sick false doctrine.
K.D., Maybe you attended a seminary that wasn’t Biblically orthodox theologically? Following Jesus is extremely technical & only happens in the mind, after all. NOT.
Hannah Thomas, The kids were props, it appears. To be seen sitting quietly & not heard. The gospel & now Christmas is this complicated. Of course the kids don’t understand. Yet this is church for them. It’s arrogant & elitist, IMO.
There are people who claim Calvin & Rushdoony that are not sick nor do they damage. They are good people. BUT they do not realize the doctrine damages.
The truth about these doctrines needs to get out. This blog serves as a warning, sounding the alarm. So many have said they wish they had known earlier. I have made changes, but wish I had been warned earlier.
JA, please keep sounding the alarm. It is so important.
“Arrogant and elitist.” I remember when our church invited Doug Wilson to speak. I thought he sounded cocky and elitist, and for the first time I started to wonder about our church’s leadership. (Managed to suppress those thoughts for years, though. I’m talented that way.) Credenda Agenda was all the rage amongst families at our church, the other moms reading and discussing the articles as if it was hot stuff.
I thought the tone rather obnoxious, myself, but when I mentioned it people would agree that the authors sounded a bit arrogant sometimes and that could be toned down, perhaps, but the *content* was the important thing and it was “right on.” (?)
Now I’m wondering about the content, but I recycled all those old issues years ago, and I have no desire anyhow to go back and re-read to see if now, sadder and wiser, I can discern the Emperor’s lack of clothing.
Umm, is it just me or has nobody else seen the video as being tongue in cheek? I havent laughed so hard for awhile, nor had the congregation by the sounds of it, the digs over Calvinism, baptism, etc. I don’t get the feeling that they were being overly serious…
OK, so I got around to watching the video–and thought that it was cute, creative, and funny. In my opinion, this was a hometown spun spoof look at theological terms from a historical/theological perspective–and at Christmastime.
Those who crafted it knew their audience. From a seminarian’s perspective, I think that a lot of students in the throes of hard work at the end of the term, looking at Church History, its trends, what theological issues arose at which times and why, would find this song quite delightful! I’m not kidding. There are historical and theological terms that we can learn over time. There are English and grammatical terms that we can understand in better ways as well. Take any discipline of study–there are terms, that is, ‘big words’ to describe them.
Having the kids there, highlighted the juxtaposition of the Christmas message–that kids could understand–and a more complex view that certain adults might want to complicate, by using theological terms, that would take some study to understand– was the comparison. Having the kids there, the song, and the final comment by the little girl seemed part of the choreographed message that the organizers had fun presenting to their church community. I took it that way, appreciated the effort, and tried not to add any personal baggage of negativity that I might bring when viewing it. It was what it was. Just fun and at a family Christmas event. My two cents worth. 🙂
We have used VF materials in the past but were never in very deep. We only rubbed elbows with folks who are friends of SB. We never considered ourselves part of the Quiverfull movement although we have welcomed 6 children into our family. We attended an FIC for a short while and I found this video to be quite funny. Very typical of the FIC church we were in, the children were to be seen and definitely not HEARD. I have a question I wasn’t sure where to ask, but I keep seeing Ken Ham’s name alongside Scott Brown and Doug Phillips. We have used his science curriculum and loved it, but I’ve never thought he was considered a leader in this form of legalistic teaching. Am I thinking of the same Ken Ham? Can anyone offer info on why I would NOT want to continue using his materials? We are purging our house of all VF materials and “tentacle” materials, (RC Sproul, Jr, McDonald,etc.) and getting back to Jesus and the Bible. I appreciate if anyone has any thoughts on this homeschooling curriculum side to the DP fallout.
I agree with you, Barb O, that the Christmas video is funny. I think it’s definitely creative… & entertaining as well. I thought the video was tongue in cheek & said that in my very first comment.
But I also think what’s wrapped up in the doctrine ultimately hurts people. Doctrine & ideology after all, direct paths & actions. Nice packaging doesn’t mean the present itself is good.
Ideas can be presented as funny, creative, entertaining, tongue in cheek. That doesn’t mean they have to be right or that I would agree with the idea.
The Christmas video reminded me of this video below. It is also funny, entertaining, definitely creative.
Thank God we have the right to disagree & are allowed differing religious opinions in this country. That’s the way it should be. But certain religious groups don’t want it that way. To call out completely different religions on this, while groups in our own Protestant faith are off limits, is unfair. It looks biased & prejudiced. I’m trying to be introspective here.
HA – I just got home from shopping (yes, champion procrastinator here). You crack me up, A Mom. That is the most annoying YouTube commercial ever! LOL It took me a while to figure out that it really was a legitimate commercial.
Rebecca, I would not categorize Ken Ham as the legalist type. He speaks at a wide variety of churches and venues, wherever the creation message and the authority of the Bible is accepted. His ministry continually emphasizes our Savior, Jesus Christ. Answers in Genesis does not promote Patriarchy that I have seen. I subscribe to email and print publications from AiG, I have many DVDs, I have enjoyed and learned from my visit to the Creation Museum, I have attended conferences with AiG speakers. We used some of the curriculum materials they produced; our sons did well in science courses in colleges. By the way, all children are being offered free admissions to the Creation Museum in 2014, so a good opportunity to visit for yourself with family or with larger groups.
Umm, is it just me or has nobody else seen the video as being tongue in cheek? I havent laughed so hard for awhile, nor had the congregation by the sounds of it, the digs over Calvinism, baptism, etc. I don’t get the feeling that they were being overly serious…
–
But these days you can’t tell the difference between “tongue in cheek” and True Believer Dead Serious. Except maybe that the True Believers are more extreme.
I have some serious issues with Ken Ham. His behavior for one is concerning. He has been disinvited to speak at conferences due to his bully-like behavior.
One thing that hits home for me personally his idea that if you do not believe in Young Earth Creation, you really cannot be a Believer. He tries not to say it so succinctly, but the implication is definitely there. His focus is that if you do not believe in the literal Genesis, then you cannot believe in the rest of the Bible.
Those ideas alone put questions in my mind about using his materials. But then add to it that he continues to rubs shoulders very closely with Reconstructionists really concerns me.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
The real question is if knowing any of those words would make you more like Jesus . 🙂
P.S. I know them all and that knowledge hasn’t helped me be more like Him.
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All I can say is, thank God there were no women in that choir.
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In answer to your question, my kids would say, “George just lucky, I guess.” 🙂
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Both wise and entertaining. Hard to watch that and think that any of these doctrines are essential to the faith – whether right or wrong and in whatever degree.
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That is just…disturbing.
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If Scripture isn’t any more perspicuous (clear) to me than the theologians who use those kinds of words, does that mean I couldn’t possibly be a Christian? How could I possibly be amongst the elect if I have to look up words like tetragrammaton (actually, τετραγράμματον)? After all, isn’t it all about holding to right doctrine? Isn’t thinking what the experts think a precondition of being Jesus’ brother or sister? How can I hold to right doctrines if I don’t even understand their names?
I mean really, my wife would not think I knew her very well if I never bothered to learn her name. But then again, again; that’s a different kind of knowing, a relational kind of knowing. Kind of like knowing Jesus.
I do hope I’m being perspicuous.
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Very clear.
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I feel bad that the children had to sit through that.
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This is interesting. I originally found the link at a Reconstructionist site. I just checked out Voddie Baucham’s Facebook page and he had it posted yesterday, too, and currently 167 people have shared it. Voddie said: “gotta love a little Reformed Baptist humor ;D” https://www.facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10151987029857550
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I was baptist and the only thing I understood was calvinism.
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I’m currently going to a Baptist church and I didn’t understand most of the words. Who uses these words?
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Ah, I see the strategy now. Make knowing God so complex, you’d have to go to seminary before being declared qualified to even talk about it. All the rest aren’t qualified to discuss the doctrine! It’s just not loving. See how they argue amongst themselves on the 5 points of Calvinism, tongue in cheek of course! As those in authority would say, the sheep need to be led. Genius! I say: spiritually superior much?
Someone mentioned the poor children having to sit through it. Watch, they aren’t even paying attention.
An observation about children in family integrated churches. They are required to sit silently, sometimes for over an hour. So what are they being taught & what are they learning? The “good” kids who “sit nicely” actually learn quickly to tune it out. They sit nicely by daydreaming or coloring (God forbid the parents take coloring away). Or they’re disciplined. Rarely are they intently listening, nor do they ask questions. They learn to be seen but not heard. They learn to be told. Think about it…
It’s certainly good for children to know how to sit nicely & quietly. But shouldn’t everyone, even children, be engaged & learning about God in church? Should children learn how to think & ask questions? Oh, but maybe they are learning exactly what the spiritual authorities want them to learn? How to sit still & be quiet?
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Excellent comment, A Mom. This reminds me of JD Hall’s book for children: Help!! Arminians are Giving me Nightmares Again! (https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/06/01/indoctrinating-your-children-with-doctrine/)
When I was at church this morning, we were discussing this:
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:26-31, ESV)
The video came to mind right after reading it.
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There are those who come here who don’t want to hear how this doctrine may have aided in spiritually wounding someone. They can’t believe anyone would have the gall to even question the doctrine. They want all questioning of it to stop immediately.
I can’t help thinking of certain churches & “spiritual authorities” that think questions only come from heretics or feminists.
I think there’s a difference between 1 & 2:
1. Indoctrination: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrinate
2. Teaching children what we want them to know while allowing & encouraging questions/feedback/thinking of their own. Interaction, dialogue, honest answers like “I don’t know. Let’s find out if we can.” Doesn’t this type of teaching apply to grown adults as well?
It seems that some adults & parents think the only way to teach is by indoctrination. Indoctrination sounds a lot like manipulation, coersion, force to me. This is not the way & will rarely produce the desired results. It usually doesn’t stick for the long-term when put to the test.
I think it’s method #1 that doesn’t work & is to blame. Public school, college,
band, sports, careers, etc. aren’t the problem. Those are just the litmus stick tests. No matter how much God’s sovereignty & man’s zero-choice is preached, each WILL choose. Parents fool themselves if they think indoctrination will produce good long-term results. Even in the last post, the young man conceded to his parents… but it hurt him.
Thoughts anyone?
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A Mom: I read your word “indoctrination” and it reminded me that I wanted to look up the movie Indoctrination. Go check out who is involved in this movie: http://indoctrinationmovie.com/about/ Wow!!!
Oh, it looks like my friends at Wartburg Watch did a great article on this movie in 2011: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/21/indoctrination-and-the-blame-game/ This is all connected with the key players in the Homeschool Movement of course. Doug Phillips and his dad, Howard, Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, Kevin Swanson, R.C. Sproul Jr., Gary North, Geoff Botkin, etc. These guys are sure into emotional hype and “indoctrination.”
And like I said, I found this video on a Reconstructionist website. If you remember, when “Chalcedon Foundation” who later acknowledged to be “Martin Selbrede, the Vice President of Chalcedon Foundation, first came to the blog and started commenting, he was speaking in college-level vocabulary and I asked him to bring it down a few notches. Look at the words in the video on this article – all 3 and 4-syllable words that are rarely used.
::::sarcasm:::: Yea, because having a relationship with Jesus requires going through all of these 3 and 4-syllable hoops to get there.
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JA, OMG (G=goodness). Birds of a feather with the same agenda flock together. This is good to know. Before your blog I had never heard of Botkin, Scott Brown, Kevin Swanson. I knew who Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, RC Sproul Jr were.
I’ve learned so much, thanks to you & your commenters! I am seeing a bigger picture & patterns are emerging. Who’s indoctrinating whom?
About the movie itself, I heard about it at one point & looked for it on youtube but didn’t find it so I never bothered after that. If it’s available to watch somewhere, like on vimeo or youtube, I’d watch it.
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A Mom: I totally agree with you! It is sad that these children are raised to simply sit still and be quiet in church. I doubt any of them have a positive view of God or worship. I know as a kid I would’ve gone crazy sitting that long in church without a book to read or a picture to color! And if these people really think that by doing that they will not grow older to be able to sit in church, think again! I, on my own, decided to put away the books and crayons and listen to the sermons when I felt like I was ready, which was at a surprisingly young age (especially considering all the teenagers out there that don’t really pay attention). Not only that, but because my parents made sure church was an uplifting and positive experience, I wanted to learn more about God!
And then to not only torture them when they’re small, but then when they’re older, they simply have to blindly accept everything being told without thinking about it for themselves? All that creates is a bunch of kids who will grow up to never be leaders for Christ in the world because they won’t have the skills to be able to do it. Sad.
Oh and Julie Anne…..I have absolutely no idea what they are saying in this video. It’s like a different language to me.
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JA, Your blog has helped me think through things. What I believe, how I decide, etc. And the thank you also goes to each brave individual who has shared their experiences, both through posts & through their comments. They’ve been so helpful to me & I am 100% confident there are many others out there who would say the same.
I’ve changed. I drank the kool-aid for a short while, which was way too long, I’m embarrassed to say. This blog has helped me see how loveless & bad it really was. And that’s a good thing! Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You matter so much. Thank you for standing for your convictions, even if it meant being sued. How difficult it must have been. You have triumphed through it & you will continue to. You are helping & encouraging people to think through their journeys as well.
I hope you & your family have a wonderful Christmas. Tell them thanks for sharing you & your investigative reporting with us this past year. Love & (hugs).
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This is the weirdest thing how your “indoctrination” word triggered the name of that movie and now I am finding all of the Reconstructionist connections. We’ve got the big names here: Gary North and Howard Phillips – even Samuel Blumenfeld. I heard Samuel Blumenfeld speak at a homeschool conference in Maine around 1991.
Check out this article. You can see Chalcedon Foundation (Reconstructionist organization founded by Rushdoony) promoted Blumenfeld because of his message against public education: http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9501/chalcedon.html
http://reason.com/archives/1998/11/01/invitation-to-a-stoning
Wow – and I thought Samuel Blumenfeld was only about the phonics program he taught. Check out this quote by him:
He was one of the first speakers I ever heard at a homeschool conference. He seemed old and kind of grumpy then and I wondered why a guy like him was trying to convince us moms to teach his phonics program. Now I see there was a bigger agenda. His educational credentials was just the hook.
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Thank you, A Mom, for your sweet note. It’s one big group here who keeps this thing going and I’m so appreciative of people like you and others who contribute. I steal my ideas from you all (just as you, A Mom, got me going on that Indoctrination move.) This is iron sharpening iron. I think we’re all done with the KoolAid here. KoolAid is for kids.
Merry Christmas!
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“I steal my ideas from you all (just as you, A Mom, got me going on that Indoctrination move.)”
JA, Don’t thank me, thank Under the Radar. That commenter got me into a discussion about doctrine. From that I started thinking certain doctrines really should be called “indoctrination” instead based on how they’re taught. lol
Seriously though, discussion & conversation with those we don’t agree with can be helpful in providing “light-bulb” moments. 🙂
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A wise man once pointed out to me that Jesus told us to become “like little children” to enter the kingdom of heaven. In his opinion, if you were wrapped up in a bunch of stuff that a 5- or 6-year-old couldn’t understand, it was probably wrong and/or unnecessary. How perfectly that fits here.
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JA (22, 6:31pm) Look at that, 2 women and 26 men interviewed in a documentary about k-12 education. Because we all know that grade school teaching is a man’s profession, whether in public, private, or home. Pffft.
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Good observation, Patrice – and one of the women has her husband’s backing.
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I don’t think it’s that tough to figure out. Neo-Calvinist leaders/authors (men) love to portray themselves as well-educated and hyper-spiritual, using biiiiig spiritual words, churning out book after book, trying to get a foothold on being important to other men in this movement. You DO know what these terms mean….you just call them by their normal English names or descriptions. I just noticed a book published on Keswick theology; I was surprised to learn I already knew what that was, just didn’t know it had a fancy name. Only in a reformed community group will you hear: He’s Pelagian! That’s Arminian! Give it a rest, guys.
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Indoctrination Movie: The 1st person listed under “crew” is J. Fernandez, Director / Producer / Cinematographer / Editor / Screenwriter. He teaches a class at:
New Geneva Christian Leadership Academy.
From their homepage, “May it be used by the Lord to the advancement of Reformed and Theonomic truth.” Dr. Daniel F.N. Ritchie, B.A., D.Min., Author of, “A Conquered Kingdom”
I’m having a hard time keeping up with the word theonomy. I found this at Wikipedia: the idea, espoused by Christian Reconstructionists, that Mosaic law should be observed by modern societies. I’m a little worried by what that means… stoning?
There’s an actual Reformed college longing for a modern-day Geneva, a church/state in America, education through… indoctrination. How ironic. That’s quite an agenda. Those fire pits on campus look awfully big to me. You say the ovens are for cooking pizzas? Why are there stones laying around everywhere? (just some comic relief)
We have parents who are running away in fear from bad AND are running in the opposite direction toward… horribly bad, IMO. We don’t want to run like madmen & madwomen away from a burning house AND leap instead into a half-frozen lake. Let’s stop, drop & roll & then sit & think before leaping.
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A Mom:
Yea, what about those stones – – for kids who talk back to parents?
What do you know – our friend, Martin Selbrede aka “Chalcedon Foundation” is on the New Geneva advisory board: http://www.newgeneva.us/Directors/Advisory_Board.htm
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The college is not accredited and look what it says to homeschoolers:
(http://www.newgeneva.us/Forms/NEWGEN~2014-15.pdf)
There is a Daniel and Joshua Horn who teach history. I wonder if they are related to the Jeff Horn who is provisional elder at Boerne Christian Assembly (must have taken Doug Phillips’ place). http://boernechristianassembly.org/about/
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JA –
They appeal to the WCF for their accreditation. This group is scary. They want the power that 17th century Geneva religious leaders had.
http://www.newgeneva.us/Accreditation/Accreditation_New%20Geneva.htm
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This is the prayer on their home page.
“May it be used by the Lord to the advancement of Reformed and Theonomic truth.”
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The same theology that has filled mass graves for centuries never looked so cute. Pray for our Louisville mission trip–we are taking this fight to the streets. Going after our young people with their sanctified communism is where I draw the line.
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Julie Ann, until your blog I had never heard of any of these people or that there were so many problems being brought to the forefront. I have only heard of the Calvinism and the Tetragrammaton. Calvanism simply because I looked it myself and the Tetragrammaton because I use a devotional titled “Praying the names of God” and my husband is Jewish. I feel so sorry for those poor little kids who had to sit through that entire song.
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church where women’s only place was in the home and my thirst for knowledge was not look upon well at all. The pastor of my church did not appreciate me asking questions or even contradicting him with the Bible on the women in the home thing. I always knew what my childhood church taught was somehow not right and it wasn’t until I was in college that I was able to put my finger on much of the problematic perspectives. You see my parents always taught me to question everything anyone says and to align it with the Bible myself. My dad always said, “never take what the pastor says as the truth because after all he is human and can and will make mistakes”. I live by that to this day and will teach my children the same and it is extremely encouraging to see so many people, women especially, who are no longer afraid and are speaking out, like you.
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I just remembered something. The associate pastor at my former church is also the youth leader. Last year one of the lectures he gave to the 6th to 12 graders was called Combating Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. It just means the belief that God is there whenever you need him and the goal in life is to feel good. But I’m sure it made him sound super smart to a bunch of kids.
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JA wrote: “What do you know – our friend, Martin Selbrede aka “Chalcedon Foundation” is on the New Geneva advisory board…”
X^*&^X#*%^X*!
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@ A Mom, I went to seminary and I don’t know most of these terms…..
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Yep, after all the ‘adult humor’ their children ask them, “What’s Christmas all about!” Did you notice that at the end of the video?
The message of Christmas should warm you hears and souls, and yet the important stuff they sung about? It went right over their kids heads. How effective.
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Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
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And after the Revolution (and Purges), We WILL Achieve True Communism!
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Jkpvarin refers to a lecture given to 6th to 12 graders (say what?) called: Combating Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.
Among other passages that come to mind, Isaiah 61 assures us that our Lord binds up the brokenhearted. Sounds therapeutic to me. These people must be using a translation that omits the word “up.” They are experts at binding the brokenhearted, and everybody else over whom they have any influence.
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JA –
Off subject: coming to a town near you 😦
https://www.christianheritageonline.org
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“Martin Selbrede aka “Chalcedon Foundation” is on the New Geneva advisory board”
It’s upsetting, but this news doesn’t surprise.
I remember spending the time slogging thru his extra long responses to the simple questions. I remember he repeatedly mentioned his busy schedule. I thought, if that’s true, why not get right to the point of it then? And with simple words while at it? His sesquipedialian loquaciousness was a red flag for me. Also, when someone dances their denials around in circles there might be a problem.
JA, This is exactly what we need. Evidence. And they’re not going to give it to us. We need to go out & get it & connect the dots ourselves. And the connections & players are massive. We need to be careful what we get into & follow.
It’s like a Monet painting. May look great from afar, but up close it’s a hot mess.
BTW, Martin would probably love this video. It’s all grandiloquence.
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That’s 5 hours away from me, Bridget.
Ok, – that list of people:
Marshall Foster
Scott Brown
RC Sproul, Jr.
Israel Wayne
Kelly Crawford
Ken Ham
I’m seeing all of those people (with the exception of Kelly Crawford) on Reconstructionist sites. When I looked up Kelly Crawford, she is a quiver full mom who lost her home in a tornado a few years ago. Her blog site is: Generation Cedar – – “generation” is buzzword in Reconstruction. She interviewed with Kevin Swanson on his Generations Radio Broadcast.
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When you say she “interviewed with Kevin Swanson,” JA, did he actually let her speak?
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I’m sure he didn’t let her teach.
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“This is all connected with the key players in the Homeschool Movement of course. Doug Phillips and his dad, Howard, Voddie Baucham, Ken Ham, Kevin Swanson, R.C. Sproul Jr., Gary North, Geoff Botkin, etc.”
I want to throw up. These are the people who have heavily influenced our homeschool and our family for the past decade. Our state homeschool organization, even our church, invited a number of them to speak over the years. Stamp of approval! How could we go wrong?
How did we get pulled into this? They fed our insecurities and built on our fears (sort of like Dr. Spock — didn’t he make a fortune with his baby book? I remember my mom telling me that his advice didn’t make sense to her), They said they were selling hope, when what they really were selling was despair and defeat.
Not blaming them for my misfortune. I’m responsible for the messages I listen to, for being pulled away from the Bible and letting people who sounded confident pull the wool over my eyes. I’m much less trusting now, but still feeling at a loss.
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Exactly, Refugee. It’s pretty sick. We assumed that if they said “Christian,” they would be like us – Christian. They are obsessed with their brand of “theologians” Calvin and Rushdoony. I have been pouring over their websites these last weeks (that’s how I came across the video in this article), they quote Rushdoony and Calvin more than scripture. The scripture they quote is primarily Old Testament. You rarely read “Jesus.” This is some sick false doctrine.
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K.D., Maybe you attended a seminary that wasn’t Biblically orthodox theologically? Following Jesus is extremely technical & only happens in the mind, after all. NOT.
Hannah Thomas, The kids were props, it appears. To be seen sitting quietly & not heard. The gospel & now Christmas is this complicated. Of course the kids don’t understand. Yet this is church for them. It’s arrogant & elitist, IMO.
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Yes! The doctrine IS sick & damaging.
There are people who claim Calvin & Rushdoony that are not sick nor do they damage. They are good people. BUT they do not realize the doctrine damages.
The truth about these doctrines needs to get out. This blog serves as a warning, sounding the alarm. So many have said they wish they had known earlier. I have made changes, but wish I had been warned earlier.
JA, please keep sounding the alarm. It is so important.
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“Arrogant and elitist.” I remember when our church invited Doug Wilson to speak. I thought he sounded cocky and elitist, and for the first time I started to wonder about our church’s leadership. (Managed to suppress those thoughts for years, though. I’m talented that way.) Credenda Agenda was all the rage amongst families at our church, the other moms reading and discussing the articles as if it was hot stuff.
I thought the tone rather obnoxious, myself, but when I mentioned it people would agree that the authors sounded a bit arrogant sometimes and that could be toned down, perhaps, but the *content* was the important thing and it was “right on.” (?)
Now I’m wondering about the content, but I recycled all those old issues years ago, and I have no desire anyhow to go back and re-read to see if now, sadder and wiser, I can discern the Emperor’s lack of clothing.
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Umm, is it just me or has nobody else seen the video as being tongue in cheek? I havent laughed so hard for awhile, nor had the congregation by the sounds of it, the digs over Calvinism, baptism, etc. I don’t get the feeling that they were being overly serious…
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Up North, I agree and also thought it was a hoot.
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OK, so I got around to watching the video–and thought that it was cute, creative, and funny. In my opinion, this was a hometown spun spoof look at theological terms from a historical/theological perspective–and at Christmastime.
Those who crafted it knew their audience. From a seminarian’s perspective, I think that a lot of students in the throes of hard work at the end of the term, looking at Church History, its trends, what theological issues arose at which times and why, would find this song quite delightful! I’m not kidding. There are historical and theological terms that we can learn over time. There are English and grammatical terms that we can understand in better ways as well. Take any discipline of study–there are terms, that is, ‘big words’ to describe them.
Having the kids there, highlighted the juxtaposition of the Christmas message–that kids could understand–and a more complex view that certain adults might want to complicate, by using theological terms, that would take some study to understand– was the comparison. Having the kids there, the song, and the final comment by the little girl seemed part of the choreographed message that the organizers had fun presenting to their church community. I took it that way, appreciated the effort, and tried not to add any personal baggage of negativity that I might bring when viewing it. It was what it was. Just fun and at a family Christmas event. My two cents worth. 🙂
Merry Christmas to all!
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We have used VF materials in the past but were never in very deep. We only rubbed elbows with folks who are friends of SB. We never considered ourselves part of the Quiverfull movement although we have welcomed 6 children into our family. We attended an FIC for a short while and I found this video to be quite funny. Very typical of the FIC church we were in, the children were to be seen and definitely not HEARD. I have a question I wasn’t sure where to ask, but I keep seeing Ken Ham’s name alongside Scott Brown and Doug Phillips. We have used his science curriculum and loved it, but I’ve never thought he was considered a leader in this form of legalistic teaching. Am I thinking of the same Ken Ham? Can anyone offer info on why I would NOT want to continue using his materials? We are purging our house of all VF materials and “tentacle” materials, (RC Sproul, Jr, McDonald,etc.) and getting back to Jesus and the Bible. I appreciate if anyone has any thoughts on this homeschooling curriculum side to the DP fallout.
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I agree with you, Barb O, that the Christmas video is funny. I think it’s definitely creative… & entertaining as well. I thought the video was tongue in cheek & said that in my very first comment.
But I also think what’s wrapped up in the doctrine ultimately hurts people. Doctrine & ideology after all, direct paths & actions. Nice packaging doesn’t mean the present itself is good.
Ideas can be presented as funny, creative, entertaining, tongue in cheek. That doesn’t mean they have to be right or that I would agree with the idea.
The Christmas video reminded me of this video below. It is also funny, entertaining, definitely creative.
Thank God we have the right to disagree & are allowed differing religious opinions in this country. That’s the way it should be. But certain religious groups don’t want it that way. To call out completely different religions on this, while groups in our own Protestant faith are off limits, is unfair. It looks biased & prejudiced. I’m trying to be introspective here.
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To prove I do have a sense of humor… and for anyone who needs a darn good laugh if this time of year may be difficult:
Go to youtube & search for poo pourri. It’s the video with over 21M views. And yes, it’s a real product. lol Funny it is, but I don’t have to buy it.
Well, maybe I should. Ahem, as gifts for others, of course… since I’m the ultimate prankster. 😉
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HA – I just got home from shopping (yes, champion procrastinator here). You crack me up, A Mom. That is the most annoying YouTube commercial ever! LOL It took me a while to figure out that it really was a legitimate commercial.
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Rebecca, I would not categorize Ken Ham as the legalist type. He speaks at a wide variety of churches and venues, wherever the creation message and the authority of the Bible is accepted. His ministry continually emphasizes our Savior, Jesus Christ. Answers in Genesis does not promote Patriarchy that I have seen. I subscribe to email and print publications from AiG, I have many DVDs, I have enjoyed and learned from my visit to the Creation Museum, I have attended conferences with AiG speakers. We used some of the curriculum materials they produced; our sons did well in science courses in colleges. By the way, all children are being offered free admissions to the Creation Museum in 2014, so a good opportunity to visit for yourself with family or with larger groups.
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Ah, yes. The “All Dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader” video (HUMBLY, of course).
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@UpNorth:
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But these days you can’t tell the difference between “tongue in cheek” and True Believer Dead Serious. Except maybe that the True Believers are more extreme.
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Welcome, raswhiting!
I have some serious issues with Ken Ham. His behavior for one is concerning. He has been disinvited to speak at conferences due to his bully-like behavior.
One thing that hits home for me personally his idea that if you do not believe in Young Earth Creation, you really cannot be a Believer. He tries not to say it so succinctly, but the implication is definitely there. His focus is that if you do not believe in the literal Genesis, then you cannot believe in the rest of the Bible.
This simple thought started the unraveling process of my daughter’s faith. Believing in Young Earth Creationism is not a primary doctrinal issue, yet the way he teaches it, it is. (You can read my daughter’s story here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/07/10/ken-ham-young-earth-creation-young-people-abandoning-their-faith-my-daughters-story/)
Those ideas alone put questions in my mind about using his materials. But then add to it that he continues to rubs shoulders very closely with Reconstructionists really concerns me.
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