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A woman was in the midst of sharing the Gospel with a man. When the Wretched folks found out she was sharing the Gospel to a man, they ask the woman to pass the phone to Todd Friel. Why???
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Wretched is a radio and tv show hosted by Todd Friel:
“On the show you will see and hear live witnessing encounters and discussions of tough theological issues and various topics in the Christian community.”
Here’s a screenshot of the Facebook note:
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Now, either there is something missing from this story, or it’s apparent that Friel has gone to the Tony Miano School of Evangelism and attended the class, “Women May Not Preach to Men.”
How does this work?
I’ve got 5 boys – age 7 to 23. When it says in Deuteronomy for parents to train their children in the way they should go, I assume that means sharing the gospel, too, right? Today, I shared a spiritual conversation with my 23-year-old. Was I wrong to do that? At what age should I no longer have spiritual conversations or teach my sons? Is it at age 18? When they start growing facial hair? When their voice changes?
What about songs in which the gospel message is presented in the lyrics? Can I sing those around my sons?
What if I was a single mother, then what?
Who makes up these silly rules?
What would the Wretched team have done if the guy on the phone didn’t want to talk to Todd? Would they have told Trish that she needed to stop sharing the gospel?
Well, at least Wayne Grudem says that women can teach deaf men or overseas on the mission field. So men are off the hook there.
You can see for yourself here – – let’s see if they keep my comments up. There is some conversation going on right now.
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If the Gospel message is the Good News for all, wouldn’t God want women sharing it, too?
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UPDATE 12/8/13: So evidently this is part of the show they call “Phone Fishing.” I am going to try to listen to the broadcast. It still doesn’t make sense why someone would interrupt a good conversation of someone sharing the Gospel.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Todd Friel, this may be way off topic so Julie Anne please feel free to not post or delete I dont know if you moderate, basically I trust your decision. Mr. Friel do you think women can teach preach to non believers, from what I have read you would not accept me as a “Christian”? It seems some in your camp think there is a difference between one on one sharing and an individual speaking to a larger group of observers.
As for the women can’t teach men Julie Anne has taught me bravery, honesty, integrity, love for God, standing up for the “least of these”, resisting evil, avoiding darkness, … Who cares from which grace from God came? I dont God gives grace through vessels and He gives people power to teach.
One other question Mr. Friel where were you and yours when Doug Phillips and his ilk were running rickshaw over thousands of people’s lives with their americanized shallow “christian nation” nonsense. One other question since you seem to know Mr Comfort quite well, could you ask him to define what he means by “kind” I cant get him to answer. Thank you.
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I dont god = God gives His grace through vessels I E humans. Sorry my sight is really getting bad and the audio thing is not working.
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The response right afterwards?
Vandy Looper: Stupid petty whining! What’s important is if this young man accepted the Lord and means to serve the Lord!
Its these arrogant SOB’s that drive me bananas! Not only can a woman not ‘teach’ or speak about God to a unbeliever…she isn’t to ask WHY either. It would never enter Vandy’s mind that Jesus would never in a million years respond like he did.
It also this attitude that creates ‘camps’ that more look like political parties than churches or houses of faith. Its also why the church isn’t growing, and losing relevance to many people. Questions, Debates Learning, and growing is always suppose to be part of it. The koolaid drinkers that are so scared to confront these attitudes (but rather endorse them) are responsible for the dying of their numbers they complain about too much.
I was glad to see the next poster told him to chill OUT! Yet, that is the reason most don’t have any interest in hearing. The Vandy’s of the world make it look so ugly.
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I’ve heard many of these sort of programs done by Mr. Friel, going back to when the program was called Way of the Master. They have a feature called Witness Wednesday, where Friel goes out to I believe Georgia Tech and engages students in interviews, ask them for permission for the interview to be broadcast; presuming that perhaps several of these take place, one is selected for the Wretched broadcast. If you subscribe to the podcast you will see these Witness Wednesday’s pop up regularly.
In the past, the crew would arrange for these phone interviews and I believe it was deliberately set up so that a producer would be out somewhere and try to engage someone to talk to Friel on the radio; so the switch over was pre-arranged.
Arrogant SOB’s? Really?
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That’s helpful, Lead Soldier – I’d like to listen to the broadcast to find out what exactly happened. Maybe I’ll hunt around for it. I was surprised to not get a response to my question on the FB page because I asked it within a minute from when it posted. I should check back to see if “Wretched” or anyone interacts with FB comments in general. That would be helpful. But if I was wrong about this being a woman/guy thing, it seems there would have been at least a few comments from people saying, “no, it’s not a woman/guy thing at all – – Todd thinks it’s cool for women to evangelize.”
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Here is the brief info on Trish Ramos’ from the Wretched website: (I won’t try to link)
Title:
Outreach and Marketing Coordinator
What my title means:
I am responsible for organizing evangelism outreaches and overseeing marketing promotions.
Favorite verse:
Daniel 12:3
What I love about Wretched:
The constant focus on the lost.
Notice that: “I am responsible for organizing evangelism outreaches…”
However, she is at the bottom of the staff list, and it is necessary to scoll a long way to find her; there may be something to that.
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I didn’t see a last name for Trish listed on the FB article – so you’re saying she works for Wretched? I’m going to go a-googlin’.
Updated:
Ok, I found it here.
But I found something else interesting on the site. They have a members area. And then you can give the gift of membership = $30 for 6 months, $59.95 for a year.
Or you can get the “Wretcheder Gift Membership.” I’m not making this up.
For “Wretcheder” level = 6 months is $80, 12 months is $160.
What in the world?
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“What I love about Wretched:
The constant focus on the lost.”
Well, since this is part of the program, it’s hard to say, but from an outsider who is unfamiliar with how this works, if this woman is engaged in a conversation evangelizing with someone and everything is going well in the conversation, why risk that important moment by handing off the phone to a stranger (Todd)? If the focus was on the lost, it seems you don’t fix what is not broken.
But maybe that wouldn’t have made for a good “show?”
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It sure looks like male/female thing, but even if it isn’t the appellation referencing the progeny of female dogs may still apply. Even the most Godly pastors in churches I have attended have had rather large ego problems. In oh so many ways everything is all about them, and there is no real recognition of the priesthood of the believers. My own experience before I abandoned organized religion (after about 40 years) is that I was seldom granted the opportunity to minister according to my God-given gifts, much less my talents, training and experience. In those few instances where I was permitted to do so, just when it would appear that things were going well, the pastor would horn in and take over.
I suggest that a very large part of the problem is structural. Whenever we organize believers’ fellowship around the leadership of a single man, wherever there is a professional/laity divide, we are setting up the preacher to become an abuser, and we are setting him up for his own fall. Fortunately there are many pastors, some of whom contribute here, who do not fall into the trap.
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Julie Anne: “It’s hard to say”. Precisely. Why don’t you call Trish Ramos and ask her? Why not stick to the original point about which you started this thread? Let her speak for herself, which is what you felt she was being denied?
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Click on his name, and your are taken to a page where Lead Soldier has this to say for himself: “I research and write on all things Darwinian Evolution. Dedicated to opposing Christian Evolutionists who have abandoned the Gospel.”
I dunno, JA. Even if I end up disagreeing with him (and I am not abandoning my test everything approach), I am now proceeding with the assumption that Lead Soldier is a credible, constructive voice. Unlike Alex, over on another thread, who comes across in, shall we say, a not so favorable light.
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Absolutely, Lead Soldier. I was thinking the same thing!
Ok, I could not find any e-mail address for Trisha on that huge site. I snooped around and found her on FB and sent a note:
The thing is that because we are not FB friends, it only goes in her “other” in box, so hopefully she will see it.
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SA, This is freaking me out! On Trish’s facebook it says “fish with Trish”. She is an exceptionally beautiful woman. How is this relavant? I remember in the ’70’s the cult called ” the Children of God” sent out young beautiful women to evangelize by “flirty fishing”. Now they took it a major step further and would have sex with these men for Christ. ( well actually to ensnare them in to the cult for $$$). Now I know this isn’t the same thing, but is Trish the “bait” to attract these guys, then Todd reels them in? Please excuse me if I am being insensitive, but it sounds like the old bait and switch. Ann
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Ann – That’s an interesting point you brought out. I don’t know exactly what her job entails. Obviously, in this instance, Aaron couldn’t have seen how beautiful she was when she was on the phone.
About an hour ago, I tried to ask further questions about whether women can share the Gospel, etc. with 28K followers, you’d think someone could respond to my question.
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So many tangential thoughts.
To answer your 8:09 post… Any of Todds followers would be “in church where they belong”.
Ok enough being snarky.
Here are some of the “tangents” my mind went on.
1) @Ann: Good observation on the “Children of God”. I think there is some thought of “The end justifies the means”. Not sure I agree.
2) The Gospel is “have a chat with Aaron about how he could be forgiven of his sins and find everlasting life. “? Don’t agree. I know this is the second time I’ve questioned the definition of The Gospel found in some of the post subjects. My personal feeling is western Christianity has nearly emasculated the meaning to a point where it’s powerless.
3) Todd Friel is part of “Way of the Master”. That could explain why he puts me on edge.
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Look what someone sent me! It looks like Trish does indeed evangelize and share the gospel with men. This is an older video from 2008, but perhaps she is still evangelizing (it’s been a few hours since I posed the question about women evangelizing to men on the FB page and with nearly 29K followers, still no response):
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At 6:31 I said that an appellation referencing the progeny of female dogs may still apply. I wish to retract that. I do not like calling people SOB’s and so on. Few humans have extended the same love to me as my female German Shepherds, both of whom are dead and have, I hope, gone on to be with the Lord–and why not? I really, really wish I had never used or agreed with any expression that puts female dogs in a bad light.
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I shared the gospel with a 95 years old man with his aide at Costco’s Friday.
He had Alzheimer’s but thanked me after I prayed with him and I pray the seeds fell on good soil– he is Jewish and his name is Moises.
His aide asked me to pray for her (she said she is an evangelical) because she was depressed. I tried to encourage her through prayer and that God brought her into this mans life 3 months ago for a reason…anyway, this thread makes me angry :(.
I felt a tugging from the Lord since I was sharing a table with them to share the gospel. So was that wrong? I don’t believe so. I surely did not want to walk away in disobedience. Who knows if this 95 year old man ever heard that Jesus was his Jewish Messiah?
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I’m glad you heard the Lord’s tugging and not Tony’s nagging, Hannah. Good for you!
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After I left my computer, I believe the Lord reminded me of the Woman at the well….after she left Jesus she went and told everyone her testimony.,
Here it is in John 4
39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
OK, so all these people heard and believed because she shared the gospel….
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Amen, Hannah!
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Julie Anne- I once did not heed the Lord’s tugging for my husbands cousin. Soon after ( a year later) he ran his sportscar into a tree getting off a highway. He was brain dead and was taken off life support.
I know God doesn’t need me, but I decided afterwards to always obey if I feel that tugging.
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Hannah,
Not that my opinion matters, but I suggest that the tugging from the Lord you experienced carries way, way more weight than all these rules about who ought to be ministering to whom in what manner. Besides which, if I might repeat and oft’ made point, Did Jesus sin in sending the woman at the well to evangelize her entire community?
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Hannah,
When I was typing what I had to say about the woman at the well, I had not seen what you posted about her at 11:25. FWIW.
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Oh another came to mind.
I was once at Home Depot looking at paint chips and a young man was there doing the same. Every other word out of his mouth was the “F” word (now I know many Christians have no problem with this) but as I spoke with him I came to find out his mom didn’t like it either. She died from breast cancer recently. He actually started crying when I shared the gospel because his mom was a Christian and he was angry at God for taking her.
I was supposed to follow up and send him a Bible but I lost his address….
It would be interesting to read others women’s stories who have witnessed to men. I am sure they are really inspiring. I actually witness more to men than women..many teenagers who help me out with the groceries!
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Gary lol The Lord gave us both that scripture!!
FWIW?
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I’d like to what what Miano and others with his rules about no women preaching think of the story about the woman at the well. I can only imagine what they ‘think’ it means.
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@ Julie Anne~
“But I found something else interesting on the site. They have a members area. And then you can give the gift of membership = $30 for 6 months, $59.95 for a year.
Or you can get the “Wretcheder Gift Membership.” I’m not making this up.
The full radio podcast and archive (1000+ hours) of all past Wretched radio shows.
View Wretched TV episodes including the complete archive (550+ shows).
15% DISCOUNT on all products in the Wretched Store.
FREE SHIPPING on all store orders over $100.
LIVE VIDEO STREAMING of Wretched Radio.
You will be helping out someone in need (Thanks to you, we will provide someone with a free membership anonymously.)
15% DISCOUNT on all Wretched live events.
Behind the scenes video.
Chat with other club members in the Wretched chat room.
The satisfied feeling that you are HUGELY supporting the production of Wretched & keeping us on the air.
For “Wretcheder” level = 6 months is $80, 12 months is $160.”
That reminded me of something Tony Miano wrote:
“Cross Encounters Ministry Van
Part of our vision for bringing Christ across America by land is the purchase of a ministry vehicle. We have set our hearts, minds, and sights set on purchasing a 2013/2014 Nissan NV3500 SL Passenger Van. We believe this van will meet our many specifications for accommodating passengers, luggage, and equipment, while providing us with the best possible fuel efficiency for a vehicle of its kind, as well as vehicle dependability and longevity.
We currently estimate the cost of the Cross Encounters Ministry Van to be in the range of $42,000-$45,000. Yes, we know this is a huge undertaking. But we know that God is more than able to accomplish the purchase of this van. We trust Him!
We have determined six levels of giving:
Red – $50
Donor receives honorable mention on the Website’s “Donor Page”
Blue – $100
Donor receives honorable mention on the Website’s “Donor Page,” which will include a hyperlink to their website (blog, ministry, church)
Green – $500
Donor receives honorable mention on the Website’s “Donor Page,” with a link to their site, and a banner on the “Donor Page.”
Bronze – $1,000
Donor receives all the before mentioned benefits, plus a banner on the Website’s home page.
Silver – $2,500
Donor receives all the before mentioned benefits, plus a small decal or magnetic sign on the ministry van
Gold – $5,000
Donor receives all the before-mentioned benefits (red-bronze), plus a large decal or magnetic sign on the ministry van” (end quote)
Tony Miano Cross Encounters CAA Support
I wonder how much he has acquired for his new van to take Christ to the un-evangelized south? Needs $45,000 for this, $2800 for payroll in 7 days, $2500 for one of his overseas trips coming up, Christmas donations/gift cards…he’s not cheap to keep, is he?
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BTW- I tried to find the “Donor Page” to which Miano refers but I could not. If anyone finds it, please link.
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Ann beat me to the punch with the “flirty fishing” comparison. So I’ll beat Headless Unicorn Guy to the punch with, “Phone fishing”– Just like Flirty Fishing—— ONLY CHRISTIAN (TM)!!
Seriously, it sounds like a marketing technique. When I was involved in an MLM pyramid, prospects or new distributors were always put on the phone with “upline” to help with closing and build loyalty to the system. I looked up one radio show where Actor Aaron, witnessing to another man, put him on the phone with Todd back at the station– didn’t seem like gender mattered.
I’m mostly ignorant of Way of the Master, but I don’t think they’d equate “sharing the Gospel” with “preaching”. “Preaching”, that special activity reserved for men, would involve one-way speaking in a loud voice to more-than-one listener, no?
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So they might say “Well, you know, the woman at the well wasn’t “preaching”. She told lots of people about Jesus, but she didn’t do so with an appropriately loud voice, or to enough people at one time, or in a one-way “I talk, you listen” manner, or with intro, 3 points, and conclusion, or with “authoritativeness”, or “masculinity” or some such. Not preaching, so doesn’t count.
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” “Preaching”, that special activity reserved for men, would involve one-way speaking in a loud voice to more-than-one listener, no?”
Yes, as compare to the One concerning whom it is said:
He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street; (Isaiah 42:2, ESV)
I contend that preaching, as it is now practiced, is not Christlike.
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I know Miano has a response for the woman at the well incident – -as well as Mary who announced that Jesus had risen from the dead – – – just as he gave a free pass for Joni Eareckson Tada as she preached at the Strange Fire conference.
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So as long as he determines what the definition of preaching is its either ok or not? Oh to be a fly in the room on Judgment day. I know, not very Christlike…
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Here’s Miano’s address of the woman at the well from his book. You used to be able to read about his view of this portion of scripture on his blog in his 4 part series “Is the Open Air Preaching Community in a Down Grade? “ but he took the series down.
“The Woman at the Well
One of the best known stories of the New Testament is found in John 4:7-45–the story of the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well. There are so many great truths shared in this story: the omniscience of Jesus Christ, the application of the Law of God to bring a person to the knowledge of sin, and Jesus identifying Himself as the Messiah to a Samaritan woman. What we don’t see in this passage, however, is an example of a woman open-air preaching.
The idea of the woman at the well returning to her village to open-air preach to the people is predicated upon an idealistic interpretation of the following passage:
“So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, ‘Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?’ They went out of the town and were coming to him . . . Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, ‘He told me all that I ever did.’ So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world’” (John 4:28-30, 39-42).
The woman telling the people of her village that Jesus knew the secrets of her heart and her life does not constitute preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ in the open-air. And here is something that is often overlooked. Look closely what she says to her fellow villagers. “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ” (emphasis added)?
Too often it is assumed that the woman was saved the day she met Jesus at the well. However, she testified about what Jesus said to her while still uncertain He was the Messiah. Even though Jesus said, “I who speak to you am he,” she asked the people of her village, “Can this be the Christ?” Certainly, the woman could have come to genuine repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that day, but Scripture doesn’t tell us. Scripture doesn’t provide us with enough information to support the idea that the woman, having come to faith in Christ, went to her village to proclaim the gospel. The woman at the well is not an example of a woman preaching the gospel in the open-air. No justification can be made for a woman preaching the gospel in the open-air by using this story as a means of support.”
(Taken from the reconciliationist: mark 1:15 ministries blog September 12, 2013 Is the Open Air Preaching community in a Down Grade? A response to Tony Miano)
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Actually, the above was from his four part series, not his book. My error.
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@ lynette~
“So as long as he determines what the definition of preaching is its either ok or not? Oh to be a fly in the room on Judgment day. I know, not very Christlike…”
The word herald is very important in his definition of who gets to preach the gospel. It must to be heralded. One needs to BE a herald, and he does not think women are herald material.
This is an interesting post for anyone who wants to see how….. “Although we know that the Bible is sufficient for life and godliness, still, illustrations are powerful to help nail the truths deeper into our mind and make plain what is simply less memorable to some.” ……those ‘illustrations” being ancient Greek traditions. I do not agree, but the author and Miano are free to adhere to their Greek traditions, if they so choose.
“In Ancient Greece, heralds had a specific role in the culture, which was practiced through various means and with a specific reputation. It is that reputation and means which we will look at as examples of how we should be as heralds of Jesus Christ.”
Read the rest at:
Watersource Ministries “A Herald’s Duty Through The Eyes Of Ancient Greece” November 3, 2013
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Just to be clear, I’m only guessing/snarking about what Tony and friends might say– I’ve not done research. But agree about the “not Christlike”.
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And Ray Comfort, Miano’s ex-employer says ~
“The Bible doesn’t say “How beautiful are the feet of the men who preach the gospel of peace . . .” or “Go (men) into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” In both cases the word “preach” is the Greek word kerusso and it means “to herald (as a public crier).” If you are a man or woman you are commanded to preach the gospel–to raise your voice as a town crier.
After the woman at the well met the Savior, she witnessed to men (see John 4:28). Did she do this on a one-to-one basis, and become silent if more than one man gathered in the open air to listen to her testify? Thank God that she wasn’t silent: “And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did” (John 4:39).”
(Ray Comfort On the Box “Should a Woman Testify in the Open Air?” Friday, July 13, 2012)
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Dave- I meant me not being Christlike for wanted to be a witness to what the Lord has to say to him on Judgement day.
“So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people, ‘Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?’ They went out of the town and were coming to him . . . Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, ‘He told me all that I ever did.’ So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world’” (John 4:28-30, 39-42).
The problem here is the way he reads these scripture. It clearly says many believed in Him because of her testimony. But further down is says ‘And many MORE believed because of His word.” So, some believed because of what she said, then some went and believed once they heard for themselves. How does Miano not see that? I’m no scholar and even I see it.
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Somebody’s gotta go tell that Woman at the Well to hush up. Because, you know, a sinner like that being a woman and the first to proclaim the Gospel of Christ…just can’t let things like that go on, in Scriptures, nonetheless. Who’s in charge around here, anyway? /sarc
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snort
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If these people don’t believe a woman can share the Gospel with a male, aren’t they in effect saying that God does not grant female believers the Holy Spirit? (Even though the Bible says in places the Holy Spirit resides in and gives gifts to both male and female believers?)
Also, when Jesus gave the Great Commission (ie spreading the Gospel), he did not specify his directions were to males only.
If one wishes to argue, “Jesus was talking to the twelve, who were men,” then you are saying the Great Commission was only intended for those twelve in particular in that day and age, and not all males including ones today?
If these guys are against a woman sharing the Gospel with a male on the phone, are they okay with a woman sharing the Gospel with another woman?
If they feel a woman Christian is too stupid, moronic, deceived, or incompetent (or whatever) to be able to present the Gospel adequately to a male, why would they attempt to permit such a horribly disqualified woman to botch the job on a Non-Christian woman, do they value female souls and salvation of females less?
if they are gender complementarians, they must say “no” to that last question to be consistent, because the common, (laughable) (mis-)interpreation of Gal 3.28 by gender comps is that the equality implied in Gal 3.28 is referring only to a “spiritual” one, where in gender comps say that God is saying that females and males are “equally saved” in Christ.
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This sounds like an ego thing. These men need to read the Bible, in it’s context, and see that women are not forbidden to proclaim the good news to sinners. Miano butchered the meaning of the word authority in his book; stating that the one proclaiming the Gospel has ‘authority’, when, in fact, the authority comes from God and His word. We are all just vessels used by God to proclaim His truth. None of us have any power or authority; Miano twists the meaning of authority to justify his insistence that women cannot proclaim the Gospel, but he’s been shown the error of his ways in this book review – http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2013/12/should-she-preach-by-tony-miano-review.html
Pride leads to a slew of sins, including the exaltation of ‘self’ over others.
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Dave A A said
That they have to specify it to such a degree and qualify it that much makes it look all the more laughable.
Deb and Dee at TWW did a page a year or more ago of some gender comp guy who had a Talmud-like page of gender roles, he had like 85 or so tasks broken down by if they were okay for a woman to perform or not.
Don’t forget (unless I’m mistaken) that the first people to discover and/or announce that Jesus was arisen were women, who ran and told the men. 🙂
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Wondering about something. Let’s say a Christian lady makes a video explaining the Gospel and uploads it to You Tube. Her You Tube channel/video can even have the disclaimer that it’s for “women only.”
But suppose a Non Christian guy watches the lady’s video presentation and becomes converted as a result. I wonder how these anti-open air women preaching / anti-women- sharing- the- Gospel- on- the- phone types would react to that?
Also, if a male gets saved hearing the Gospel via a woman (regardless of format), are they going to suggest that the male is not “really” saved and needs to re-hear the Gospel from a man?
Isn’t there an example of a woman sharing the Gospel with some guy in the New Testament, and he became saved?
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Daisy: I just went on a wild goose chase trying to find Grudem’s rules and most of them have been scrubbed. I finally found one and tweeted it so people could bookmark it. We cannot lose this. This shows how ridiculous some men are. Wayne Grudem was one of the key figures to start up the Council for Biblical Manhood and Woman and for this dude to say that women can teach deaf men, but not hearing men is so absurd! He’s making it up as he goes and people actually respect this guy. I just tweeted this to spread the love.
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Maybe they will call it a fraudulent conversion and say they have to redo it with a dude present.
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Men holding women back and pushing them (you) down is part of the Adamic curse. And all the women said “It’s a dammit curse”. It’s something that shouldn’t exist in Christianity. Sexist exist shouldn’t just roll off out tongue. I have some lady friends who would scoff at the idea of women not preaching (sharing, giving, telling ) the gospel. I agree with the poster who said it’s just a marketing technique. It’s a control issue none the less.
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Here’s a verse for the macho crowd:
proverbs 1:20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud, she raises her voice in the public square;
wisdom is referred to as ‘she’ not ‘he’. The whole chapter is a manly rebuke from a ‘woman’.
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Gary’s comment, “The whole chapter is a manly rebuke from a ‘woman’.”
Wisdom sounds like an angry man. Hmmm… “angry man” sounds familiar. Where have I heard that phrase before?!
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This reminds me of a time when someone told me that our church had been criticized while doing mission work in Russia. Reason? Female translators were being used and that was considered “preaching”. (Note: Our church wasn’t being critical, it was people not members of our church who were being critical.)
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Julie Anne,
I was looking over the web page you linked to. On page 2, by Wayne Grudem, was this:
So, he’s against adult, American women leading or teaching adult, American men, but he’d be peachy with an adult, American woman playing this role in another nation?
I’ve seen a few Christian shows and read a few articles the last few years that mention that Christians from other nations are now sending missionaries to the United States, as well as to other nations.
I’ve heard of Christians in South Korea and Africa sending missionaries to the USA and other countries.
Supposing that a Christian church from South Korea (or where ever, let’s just use SK here) sends an adult, female missionary to the United States.
Wouldn’t that put Grudem and those like him in an odd position? He seems fine with an adult woman teaching/leading men on other nations not her own, so that would seem to indicate a Non-American Christian woman should be permitted to lead/teach men in the USA.
If that is so, the whole rule is ludicrous from the start.
If you’re going to allow a Non American woman to act as missionaries, teachers, leaders to men in America, then it’s their nationality that has become the key component, not their gender, but the gender complementarians like to base all their arguments on gender.
Or, vice versa. Since he’s fine with adult, American females teaching/leading men in other nations, suddenly, their gender has stopped being a consideration and it’s mainly about their nation of birth. That is just ridiculous.
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Also, about Grudem’s 83 List of Rules for Women and Men.
If you have to come up with a real long detailed list like that one, I think you might be doing Christianity wrong and/or you are misunderstanding the Bible’s views on gender.
Jesus had to face a religious faction in his day that added and added on to the Scriptures until they had all sorts of additional rules, oral rules about behavior, and it delved into the ridiculous, anal retentive, and minute, such as (to make up an example), if your sandal became un-tied on the Sabbath, you couldn’t tie it back, because that was a “work.” 🙄
Jesus was fine with the religious guys actually following the Scriptures where the Scriptures spoke, but he took great issue with the leaders either adding rules on to what was there, or neglecting to carry out the rules they already had.
It looks to me as though some of the gender comp guys have made their own Gender Role Mishna/Talmud, they’ve created a big, nit picky, oral law that they expect everyone to follow. Jesus came in part to do away with that sort of nonsense.
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WHY would Todd do such a thing? Does the name “Wretched” mean anything?
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I think the wretched probably refers to all of us sinners who forget about our victory in Christ.
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Julie Anne
I believe women can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What the Apostle Paul refers to it’s that women are not allowed to teach in the gatherings, as in the “churches” (Which I think it’s a more of a Jewish tradition thing that came from Paul’s feeling rather than something else, and I still doubt many things in Paul’s teaching because of some discrepancies that can be found in the words said by Jesus and the words said by Paul)
Nevertheless there is enough proof that women were in the front line when it was about supporting Jesus’s ministry in fact they were so trusted by God that we can realize that they were the first ones in spreading the Gospel, when Jesus resurrected from the dead.
Matthew 28
28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.
The same in Mark 16 and John 20. If you read carefully the women they believed Jesus Christ resurrected however the apostles were still skeptical even when Jesus showed Himself to them, so that leaves much to be desired.
Men are the head of the house but women are our necks, without them we have no stability, we men have to understand that, but there’s so much machismo nowadays that we do silly stuffs, if we’d love women how the Bible says “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her” women would submit to men, that’s why God commands us to love them.
As for these things with wretched I am really disappointed and sad, I had some hopes in this guys, but I can see it’s the same all over, in the end it’s about money! saying a lil bit of truth or trying to make the word of God sound more powerful doesn’t make them any different than Joel Osteen or any prosperity teacher out there, it’s just make them more hypocritical because even knowing the truth they lower themselves to do these kinds of stuff! it’s just sad!
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Those women were the first Apostles. Those sent by Jesus directly during his post resurrection, pre-ascension time on earth, to proclaim that he has risen, which is the core of the gospel.
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I have a funny feeling about Todd Friel, I understand he is sharing the gospel praise the Lord but it also seems like he is selling it just the same, as if to say the rich are the only ones who can afford to be a part of the kingdom of heaven, the way of the master was not like that, I was poor and could still access studies on evangelism. Go to the wretched website you have to pay money to use the site. What is that all about? I thought Jesus said freely you receive freely you give…. I smell a rat.
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I find that disturbing, too, Henry. It just seem so business-y.
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It was probably a wednesday. Wednesday is witness wednesday. During this timeframe someone like Trish or the Lawman in California would find a candidate (someone who is willing to talk on the radio), start thr initial conversation, then pass the phone for the person to talk to someone like Todd or Ray Comfort or even Kirk Cameron. They wpuld then spend the next 15 to 20 minutes talking to that person. After they had been witnessed to the onsite person like Trish or Lawman would continue the conversation off air. The purpose is firstly to share the Gospel and secondly to give wretched listeners a witness encounter sample to which they can take “lessons learned” and apply it to their own witnessing. It has nothing to do with one person has more authority or experience than. It certainly has nothing to do with Trish being a woman as I said even the Lawman in cali passes his phone. Its for the listeners benefit.
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Wretched radio has people out in the field (Trush is one of them) who find people to share the gospel with and then contact is made by phone between Todd and the person on the field so that Todd can witness to people on the air. That’s all it is.
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My parents used to go to the Ramos’ church in Texas. During that time, they got to know Trish and her husband, Emilio. They were always amazed at how Trish would take every opportunity to evangelize. If she didn’t have the time to sit and talk, she would hand out a tract and simply say as much as she could without any shame–this was in the presence of her husband, a pastor, who could have easily taken over, but didn’t and doesn’t.
There is not nearly enough evidence here to say that Todd believes that women shouldn’t evangelize to men. You yourself stated as a question:
“But I’m wondering this: would she have been allowed to continue the conversation if it were not part of the show? Does her being a woman talking to a guy play in any part of this?”
I would respond, again that there is no evidence to believe so unless that is warranted. The fact that it happened does not warrant the reason that “she is a woman and wasn’t allowed.” It very well could have been that in the course of the conversation, Todd found Trish’s short explanation to put Aaron in his field of expertise.
Regarding the charges that Wretched is “rat-y” due to selling the use of their resources for profit, then I don’t think you understand what the ministry entails. This is Todd’s full-time job alongside his crew. The subscriptions help pay for the studio, equipment and labor necessary to create the resources and help feed his family. A Christian isn’t wrong for selling theological resources for profit, especially if that is their source of income to support their family. Subscriptions help guarantee a certain level of income from month-to-month while other product and merchandise sales help supplement that.
Additionally, Wretched is not Way of the Master rebranded. Wretched is Todd’s own ministry. Trish is associated with Way of the Master where Todd used to (and sometimes still does) guest appear. Way of the Master is Ray Comfort’s ministry.
Todd provides helpful resources and explains key doctrines in a helpful, meaningful way in his videos. He is not a perfect person, and indeed perhaps he should have let her finish. I’m no more familiar with that specific situation than you are, but it is not warranted to believe that Todd thinks women are inadequate vessels to share the gospel with men.
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I don’t have a comment about this particular article but was wondering haven’t we come to a place where we understand that the intervention of God towards man IS Grace.
I’m tired of hearing the debate around works and Grace.
God’s grace was extended to us purely and primarily by his own will. had it not been for God’s grace extended to us we would not even have an opportunity to be saved.
Stop and think about it Israel the Jews didn’t do anything and they were brought out of Egypt.
We in like fashion were drawn to the Amazing Grace that we experience daily or at least should experience daily.
Our hearts are turned to God by and because of his grace.
Thank you for your program I’ve learned a lot and appreciate what you doing.
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1 Tim 2:12 “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”
Based on scripture woman can not teach men. Definition of a man based on jewish tradition was usually after a barmitzvah- the religious initiation ceremony of a Jewish boy who has reached the age of 13 and is regarded as ready to observe religious precepts and eligible to take part in public worship.
At that point a Christian man should be teach a boys around age 13. A woman can teach boys up til age 12. This teaching over man only applies to spiritual/religious teaching, not when it comes to schooling, etc.
Based on scripture even when one is on missions women should not teach what is considered an adult man scripture.
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Andrew – why do you suppose God use women to tell men that Jesus had risen – when women were not respected during those days? Why do you suppose God would use Mary to tell Jesus to do His first miracle? You picking ONE verse is not lining up with the rest of scripture. And from that ONE verse, look how you have made a new rule about women not teaching boys over 13 yrs and not overseas. I wonder what you’re going to add next to scripture!
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Julie Ann- intersesting i gave you you a verse, with understanding that you would read whole chapter for context.
https://www.gracechurch.org/about/distinctives/role-of-women
Interesting that i gave you a verse and gave you some context….however you didnt give verses just statements….with no supporting verses or context…
Your example of women stating Christ has risen….they were already on the way to the tomb…again this is not them acting as spiritual instruction over man….
Your example of Mary telling Christ to make wine….again that is a mother talking to her son not in spiritual instruction. Clearly in John 2- Christ at first rejects her request b at first because his time had not yet come but being her son honored the request because by not would have signed.
Clearly you put your own thoughts into scripture and change for your view. This conversation is not going to be edifying so i am done with any further decision with you.
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The link you provided explains your perspective. If you’d be interested in looking further on this topic, I can post links for your consideration.
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I’ll say. Their perspective is, “Men rool, wimmen drool!” Whatever they claim to believe about “spiritual equality”.
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You are 100% correct! I listened to this guys podcast a few times and went ugh….. he’s a blow hard in my opinion and a chauvinist along with being a Calvinist! Can’t stand him.
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This guy Todd Friel does not behave like a Christian. I have noticed an elitist arrogance in his speech and behaviour. He appeases certain mainstream calvinistic preachers to appear to be in their good books and thereby gain credence with his target audience. Yet what is worst I have only seen him PUT DOWN every other person who claims to be a Christian and negate their testimony as though God has made it his particular calling to judge other people’s faith. He himself appears to lack wisdom and cannot stand his own ground against unbelievers because he lacks humility and wisdom. After recent ravi Zacharias debacle his show is only dedicated to bash ravi Zacharias and nothing else. I reckon one show is sufficient to speak about the topic. Everybody is flawed. Not that Ravi was right but that’s Todd’s approach to everyone. Also we all believers learn and grow in Christ day by day. But we do so in humility. Not entertainment at the cost of humility. In any case, his comment section is always turned off on wretched so as to avoid criticism. In today’s day and age it appears all these mainstream preachers, pastors, speakers, entertainment personalities will be exposed and those whose who are sincere, humble and loving will remain.
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