In an effort to “raise up a child in the way they should go,” some Christian homeschool parents are essentially kidnapping their daughters, only teaching “homemaking” skills, even denying and preventing them from getting a college education.
There are too many homeschooled girls who need help overcoming the legal obstacles their parents put in their path to a college education. It also bothers me that the leaders of the Christian homeschooling movement preach that young girls shouldn’t get a “regular” education – that they should only be trained in domestic arts and “female” tasks.
~Nick Ducote, Homeschoolers Anonymous
Father is involved in all aspects of his adult daughter’s lives until marriage
Earlier this week, my young friend, Nicholas Ducote, co-founder of Homeschoolers Anonymous blog posted a Facebook status that resonated with me. It hit me hard because this was a path our family was heading down. He was writing about the plight he has seen among a number of young ladies who are part of the “Homeschool Movement,” the subculture of fundamentalist Christians who adhere to the Patriarchal lifestyle in which the father is very involved in all aspects of his adult daughters’ lives, even through adulthood until they are married – married to a husband approved by the father.
Nick, a former homeschool student, has earned his Master’s degree. He knows the challenges he faced in getting his degrees, but it struck me how Nick was clearly upset about the injustices he saw facing his female homeschool peers.
“My daughters are not going off to college”
In the Homeschool Movement, this educational imbalance among the sexes is not perceived as an injustice whatsoever. In fact, to even think of sending an adult daughter “off to school,” is to some, heretical. As recent as a month ago, a homeschool mom and friend of mine posted on Facebook that her adult daughters would not be going to college – that she and her husband “just don’t believe in that.” It makes me wonder: did her parents make all of her decisions when she became an adult? Probably not.
Here is a screenshot I saved from a homeschool wives group on Facebook several months ago and you can see the similar mindset:
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I used to believe this way. In the Homeschool Movement, I was taught to believe that if we sent our daughters off to college, they would want to use that education, get a job, might even earn more money than their husbands. This was “not right” because husbands were supposed to be the breadwinners and mothers were to be busy at home with the children. They claimed this was all the work of feminists and the feminist influence on society was breaking up families and demeaning men. Feminism was the cause of the moral decay in society.
I’ve been a homemaker for nearly 27 years. I have loved staying home with the children. It is wonderful for mom to stay home with her children. But is it the only way? Is it always possible? Is it really all that black and white as “they” portray it to be? Can we have decent families in which a mom works part-time?
Leaders in the Homeschool Movement spend an exorbitant amount of time selling their rhetoric in words and in materials (books, videos, blog articles) sharing what they believe to be the ultimate role of women as homemaker: how to be respectful and submissive wives, how to cook, sew, how to raise children, etc. If you are a young girl raised in this environment, your know your lot in life is: get married to your approved husband, have many children, teach your children at home, and hopefully, your children will do the same.
It is important to note the basis of this ideology. The ultimate goal in the Homeschool Movement is to be fruitful and multiply and “take dominion” of the world. Dominionism and Reconstructionism are foundational roots from which everything in the movement is cultivated.
Nick then discussed a young lady who has been in the spotlight lately, Malala. If you are unfamiliar with Malala, I encourage you to read about this courageous young lady who is making her voice be heard in a country where women’s voices are squelched.
“is a Pakistani school pupil and education activist from the town of Mingora in the Swat District of Pakistan’s northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. She is known for her activism for rights to education and for women, especially in the Swat Valley, where the Taliban had at times banned girls from attending school. (Source)
Here is a video Nick included of Malala. The Taliban tried to assassinate this young lady because of her powerful voice and she survived and her voice is even stronger and now has international attention. Please listen to this amazing interview.
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Nick writes:
What is especially disturbing is when you hear Malala talk about how the Taliban in the Swat Valley of Pakistan wants to take education away from girls. You would hope, in the 21st century, young women would have basic access to education.
I will be loud and proud about my homeschooling advocacy because my heart is broken on a regular basis when homeschooled teenagers trapped in fundamentalism contact me trapped, struggling to assert themselves and pursue the future THEY want. Sometimes parents deny FAFSA signatures, or they edit their transcript if they apply to an “unapproved” school. I have talked to homeschooled girls who were literally trafficked (for sex and for labor).
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Some homeschooled adult daughters fare no better than Pakistani young ladies when it comes to education
Nick is right. We expect this kind of thing in Pakistan, but not in the US. Some of these young ladies who have officially graduated from their homeschool high school are not allowed to even choose whether they go to college or not. College is simply not allowed. They are destined to be a “stay-at-home-daughter,” serving parents, helping with the remaining children at home, help with cooking, cleaning around the house, etc.
In the United States of America, we have young female adults – – I said ADULTS – – – who are living at the home of their Christian homeschooling parents, unable to make adult decisions of where they can live, where they can go to school, who they can be friends with, where they go on the internet, etc. They are essentially forced to follow the path of their parents. They are cut off from the outside because their internet use, cell phone use is highly monitored.
Now some of these young ladies go along with this without any dissension. This is the only life they’ve ever known. They have been sheltered from the “world” or society. Their friends are people from church, from homeschool groups, etc. This is their norm. Some may do fine with this. They will allow their parents to help select a husband for them, get married, have babies and continue living the legacy their parents planned for them.
However, there are other young ladies who want to explore life outside of the life and rule of their parents. They want the opportunity to go to school and further their education. But they are not allowed this opportunity. They are prevented. How can this be?? In this day and age??
These parents hold the keys to their adult daughters’ freedom. They are the ones who decide whether they will turn over their signed homeschool high school transcript. They are the ones who must sign and turn over info for FAFSA documentation for financial aid. They decide whether their daughters can get a driver’s license, work outside the home, etc.
In the United States of America, there are young ladies held against their will in their parents’ homes and they are trapped. They don’t know where to go. They don’t know how to escape. They don’t know how to get schooling. They are completely isolated.
This is happening in OUR country – USA.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
I’m so glad that wasn’t me. Learning is a passion of mine and I have friendships that I built during my classes that are still alive and strong. In fact, it was the threat of that being taken away from me by our “pastor” by telling my parents I shouldn’t be allowed to have ANY outside influences (which included college, internet, and my nanny jobs) that pushed me to move out when I did.
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Hannah,
You are a powerful voice for these girls.
Julie Anne,
Did you mention that, in some cases, when these girls decide to leave home anyway they are shunned by their own families and many/most of their childhood friends? I read the article twice, but I could have missed it. This subject raises my hackles. The church we came out of raised their girls this way, too. Had we stayed, my daughters would be victims of this.
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At this point, I have read only the first fourth or so of the post (I will read the rest momentarily), but I did want to comment on this:
“Father is involved in all aspects of his adult daughter’s lives until marriage”
These days, the age of first marriage for males and female has increased. People used to marry in their early or mid twenties but are now marrying in their late twenties.
Some women wind up not marrying at all, some by choice, some by circumstance.
There is a boatload of Christian women in their mid 30s and older (me included – I was raised a Christian) who wanted to get married, who thought God would send a spouse our way, but it has not happened. I did not expect to find myself single into my 40s.
I wonder if these homeschool / courtship families have taken any of this into consideration?
Even if you get married, your husband might drop dead, and you should have some form of income of your own. I think it’s not only sexist by down right short-sighted and unwise to keep a daughter from college and to restrict her to such an insane degree.
These types of views keep grown women infantilize.
This may not be here nor there, but I just saw a headline on internet news section last night that the Quivering Duggar family says they are trying to have baby #20. The headline on ABC News:
“Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar Trying for Baby Number 20”
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“Even if you get married, your husband might drop dead, and you should have some form of income of your own. I think it’s not only sexist by down right short-sighted and unwise to keep a daughter from college and to restrict her to such an insane degree.
These types of views keep grown women infantilize.”
Exactly, Daisy. Also, in this economy, some women have to work just to help keep the family afloat.
These scenarios can get really strange for older ladies. I was 30 when I married. Because my parents weren’t a part of my church, the ministers and my FIL had to give their approval for my husband to ask me to marry him. At least I wanted to marry him. Other young girls were coerced into marrying boys they weren’t interested in.
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Sadly I have met many girls in this situation. The Duggars influence is huge where I live. Slightly off topic but this reminds me of a family story. My great-grandfather didn’t want my great-grandmother learning how to drive – too much independence. So my grandma taught her. One day great-grandma took the car keys, announced that she was going to the store and left. Great-grandpa was so shocked that he couldn’t respond. And that was how my great-grandma gained her independence.
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Daisy said:”There is a boatload of Christian women in their mid 30s and older (me included – I was raised a Christian) who wanted to get married, who thought God would send a spouse our way, but it has not happened. I did not expect to find myself single into my 40s.
I wonder if these homeschool / courtship families have taken any of this into consideration?”
They really don’t care about this consideration because that would be buying into the culture. And again, keep in mind the ultimate goal is to be fruitful and multiply.
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Julie Anne said,
It’s something they need to consider, because it’s reality.
I used to be a biblical gender complementarian until my mid 30s or so. So I was not (nor am I even now) a flaming secular feminist.
I was the ideal biblical womanhood role model up until maybe my late 30s – chaste, sweet, un-assertive, etc. (I also prayed for a spouse, and God never sent me one.)
You can be a good Christian woman, believe in, and live by, old fashioned views of women, men, and marriage and still be unable to get a spouse. It happens. There are other Christian adult, single women out there who are in the same situation, a few have written books highlighting the problem.
Most Christians would agree that sex is for marriage only, and so babies should ideally only come after marriage (since babies are the outcome of marital sex), but the Bible depicts marriage in the New Testament as being personal choice, not a mandate.
Paul even writes it is better for believers not to marry. If there is no command in the NT to marry, it follows there is no command to have children, either.
I don’t think these Christian fertility type groups, the “keep the wimmin at home, even in adulthood” types, understand the Bible’s views of singleness, or they just don’t care.
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When I read about Christian Homeschoolers and these attitudes about daughters I can’t help but remember a strange incident with our former pastor. We (my husband, baby son #1 and I), were eating at a fast food restaurant with pastor and his then 2 year old daughter. (I think the other women from church were away at a retreat that weekend.) He told his daughter to eat her lunch because my son would not want to marry her if she wasted her food. I laughed it off, and said that I did not think he would want to marry and older woman, and he replied in a serious tone “She’s not THAT much older!” My husband insists that he was only joking, but I had seen other clues of the “leaders” in essence paring children off as they were born or joined the church. Is this really still a thing, in the 21st century???
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The Taliban deny education to girls and women. Another set of religious extremists, the dominionists/reconstructionists masquerading as homeschoolers, deny education to girls and women. What, really, is the difference? Would it not be appropriate to call the second set of radical zealots the American Taliban?
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” Would it not be appropriate to call the second set of radical zealots the American Taliban?”
Very appropriate, indeed.
God, bless Malala. I want to adopt her, too! There are so many young ladies in the US we can speak up for.
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From what I am reading here and elsewhere, I sense that more women than men remain unmarried, against their wishes, as they approach and enter middle age. Perhaps this has to do with fewer men than women being willing to comply with the demands of patriarchal/complementarian/courtship/dominionist/reconstructionist dogma. Maybe it is because the dogmas themselves have disparate negative impact women. Certainly patriarchy and complementarianism favor men.
Whatever the cause, it would seem that more “movement” women than men find themselves single later in life. This is not favorable to the dominant agenda of what I will here call the American Taliban. Because they cannot win by persuasion, they must turn to biological multiplication. If I am correct in thinking that the agenda is more about dominating culture and society than it is about principles of Christian living, do not be surprised if leading “movement” voices eventually come out in favor of polygamy.
And no, I am not just being facetious.
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The parenting this post discusses grieves me so much. It is so off.
As a parent, I always want the best. But at times I am to guide, not decide. I need to discern those whens. As children grow up, they must learn how to make right decisions on their own. They will grow independently away from their parents. And that’s to be our goal as well: adults capable of standing on their own two feet.
I am a Christian homeschool mom. What I have seen is a one-way, one-size applies. That makes me sad. Yes, we are to protect our kids. I get that, I do that. Yet while we show them by words & deeds, we ourselves can’t save them, we aren’t Jesus. That reality can be scary, so some depart from reality & choose a make-believe, fairytale life. A life that’s too isolated & doesn’t provide children much opportunity to build & develop their own “right choice” muscles. If I think about it, it is not a fairytale, it’s extreme segregation in action. Some of the Christian homeschool group is chugging off the rails into extremes, IMO.
What grieves me the most is that the patriarchy/comp philosophy is so damaging to women & families. My Grandmother was independent (she wore pants on the farm, dungarees no less!), had an entrepreneurial spirit, was smart, funny, & respectful. My Mom (her daughter-in-law), also. It is a myth, a lie, that women are either independent OR respectful. Women can be & are both. Families thrive with these types of Moms as well.
What I see is fear being generated, being capitalized on? Fear of family breakdown. Fear of a world gone wild. Fear of forgetting Jesus. I understand. I am concerned as well.
But to clamp down, control, force is not the answer. To raise uneducated, dependent women & men is not the answer.
The answer is to raise educated, thinking, independent, wise children into adults who will solve problems. Encourage them to question & then help them learn how to find the answers. Teach them the value of education, the value of themselves, to love to do right (it should become a habit), teach them why & how to follow Jesus, to be kind to others, admit when we are wrong & be the first to say sorry. Understand we can learn from them as well.
Jesus died & rose again so that we may be free to serve Him to our fullest effort & ability. Let’s teach our kids they have immense worth.
It certainly does seem like the Taliban & certain Christian movements have the same agenda for women. And children.
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I am now 30. After I graduated from homeschooling, if I was not sent to a Bible school that had very traditional roles in male/female chores (and it wasn’t a for credit school) or living with other relatives, I was home, locked in my bedroom (yes, actually locked in… I had an adjoining bathroom and my food was pushed in through a cat flap) , not allowed to go anywhere but church, waiting for my family to find another arrangement for me that I didn’t want. I had given my heart to someone else. I finally got out when I was one month shy of 27, becoming homeless in order to do so.
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A Mom said:
What I see is fear being generated, being capitalized on? Fear of family breakdown. Fear of a world gone wild. Fear of forgetting Jesus. I understand. I am concerned as well.
It’s interesting. When I hear homeschool moms talk about Homeschoolers Anonymous blog, they are shocked at what they see there –how some of the homeschool kids (now adults) are really suffering a lot of mental health issues, have used drugs, sex, cutting, eating disorders, etc, to numb their pain. So many of these HKs have been in a “cult” in their own homes. I think we need to start looking at it like that.
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Revenwyn,
I caught myself shaking when reading your comment. Thank you for speaking up here and sharing your experience. Wow. Unreal.
I am certain that there are so many others who share similar experiences. I don’t know if you’d be interested in sharing more of your story, but if you are, I’d be happy to feature it. It really is time to blow the bullhorn on this kind of atrocity that is silenced in the homeschool movement.
How are you doing now? I really have so many questions I’d love to ask you, but I don’t want to put you on the spot at all. I’m just so thankful that you got out and that you are speaking up about this. Thank you so much.
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Revenwyn,
Your comment brought tears to my eyes. I hope you have a home now. I hope the Lord more than restores the years that were taken from you. You have amazing courage to have escaped! Hugs.
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This is such a scary and pressing issue to me. I wonder how much these girls are aware of their position and or if they are scared into this way of life? It breaks my heart. There are so many different types of imprisonment. It’s so sad because this type comes from a very silenced sub-culture of beliefs that is so detached from today’s society it becomes lost in itself.
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Wallflower: Well, with a church that size, I think it was only inevitable that people start taking dibs – lol. Anyone outside of the church wouldn’t be acceptable, right?
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Revenwyn,
I’m so sorry to hear that you’ve been through this. And at the hands of your own parents, who were supposed to love you, care for you, and let you grow into a full-fledged, confident woman. Instead, they treated you like a pet, or some caged animal. How disgusting.
I’ve been reading recently about a young woman who was imprisoned, and had her life managed, by another so-called “religious” group. What happened to her was heinous and heart-rending. But to think that the abuse you suffered was from your parents, and considered “biblical” … that just makes me ill. (Are your parents Christians? You didn’t say specifically in your post.)
And some homeschoolers are paranoid about “losing their parental rights”. With stories like these, I think the U.S. needs to strengthen and protect children’s rights even more.
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Revenwyn – I too am struck with your story. Moving out was the hardest decision of my life, and it was the most difficult to do. I can tell your wasn’t easy either. The more people like us speak up and tell our stories, I hope more daughters like us will have the courage to stand up and “rebel”. I didn’t have anyone to follow or ask questions when I was grappling with that situation, but I will more than willingly be someone anyone can ask anything about my situation or whatever…. My mom has my e-mail – if any girls want to contact me, just ask her!
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^^^^I’m trying to wrap my head around this. My daughter, Hannah, was raised up in this environment. I contributed to my daughter’s pain. Although she did go to college while living at home, she did feel as a prisoner. And now here she is on my blog offering to help others who have gone through similar experiences.
:::::floors me::::::
I love you, Hannah! That’s awesome.
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JA,
Thanks. I just checked out homeschoolers anonymous blog. It’s a lesson to me on what not to do myself. One article in ten most popular list caught my eye: The Truth About Sheltering Your Kids: Jonathan Farris’ Story. http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/sarahs-story/
Two things struck me:
1.Jonathan talked about this belief that was pounded into children, “no matter what adversity or difficulty you are facing, either physical, mental, or spiritual, all you need to do is cry out to God and he will get you through it”.
This belief is wrong, wrong, wrong. We pray AND TAKE ACTION to fix things. We are not helpless, incapable, slimy broken worms. If one is sick: go to the dr, if one is cold: put a jacket on, if it’s too dark: turn the light on, if one needs help: go to the appropriate person (police, dentist, dr, friend, etc.). This is another reason why turning to the church or a pastor can be a big mistake.
2.Jonathan said, “After years of rebuilding my beliefs and life I have come to clarity. I realize my parents were raising children, and while this is typically what people say, I believe the mentality of child rearing needs to change.
Stop ‘raising children’, start raising responsible and educated adults who will not only be beneficial to society, but understand how to be a part of it.”
Yes! I connect with his profound statement. This is what I was trying to say in my first comment. Children aren’t objects to control or manipulate. We need to think & get perspective about what our responsibility is: to fully equip future adults.
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Revenwyn, Thank you for telling us about your life growing up. I’m appalled & upset at the extreme level of control your parents exerted on you. How are you? What is life like now for you? I, too, am concerned for you, that you are safe & have a home now. Let us know if you can. I would give you a hug if I could.
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A Mom quoted this:
And her responde:
We can see this mentality blatantly in the Word of Faith movement. But I am convinced that this same kind of mentality is in the Homeschool Movement as well. In this post, I touched on it as well as a woman is taught that if her husband is treating her poorly, that she pray that God will change his heart. If her husband doesn’t change his heart, then she is suffering for righteousness sake.
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Revenwyn, I’m so sorry for what you went through. It’s just so wrong!
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AKA “OUTBREED THE HEATHEN!”
And when you’ve bred enough Uruk-Hai/living weapons, STRIKE and TAKE OVER!
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They quote different holy books for “GOD HATH SAID!” justification.
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JA, You nailed in your comment. At 18, they are considered legal adults and the parents have no control. However, the girls have been so sheltered they have no basic survival skills outside that environment.
I know of a couple that helped some of these girls escape their situation who were in their mid 20’s. They could not drive. They had NEVER visited a gyn and one had a horrible tumor! (And these were girls who were not in some backwoods compound but with a group that is promoted by Al Mohler at SBTS! A group that really promoted Family Integrated Church)
These girls were home “serving” their father until the right man asked for their hand in marriage. I think many would leave if they had the resources.
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“Stop ‘raising children’, start raising responsible and educated adults who will not only be beneficial to society, but understand how to be a part of it.””
AMEN! My mom used to tell me this all the time growing up. She would say, I am responsible to guide you to become a responsible adult!
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When my mom was 13, her mother said to her one day out of the blue she wanted her to drive her to the store.(my grandmother COULD drive, btw) My mom protested that she did not know how to drive. her mom said, well you will be able to by the time we get home.
My mom told me that was how she learned to drive. And we are talking a clutch and everything from back in the 40’s :o)
That is how we raise girls. :o)
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Here’s a fairly new book challenging young ladies about the real necessity for college: http://sheconsiders.com/no-more-wasted-years-2/
“Ravaged by feminism’s lies, young women are looking for real answers.
No More Wasted Years delivers.”
Kelly Crawford, GenerationCedar.com
“No More Wasted Years is an essential for all young women
seeking biblical womanhood in a anti-biblical world.”
Kathy Brodock, TeachingGoodThings.com
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(http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2007/06/response-to-reader.html)
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@ JA~
“We can see this mentality blatantly in the Word of Faith movement. But I am convinced that this same kind of mentality is in the Homeschool Movement as well. In this post, I touched on it as well as a woman is taught that if her husband is treating her poorly, that she pray that God will change his heart. If her husband doesn’t change his heart, then she is suffering for righteousness sake.”
You are right about the WOF movement. Except the word of faithers would never accept that they are to suffer for righteousness. There is not supposed to be any suffering in a wofer’s life. If things are not going well financially, or you are being abused/mistreated/cheated, etc., they will blame you by saying you did not have strong enough faith, or that you did not pray long, loudly, emotionally, coldly, hotly, publically, privately, deeply, shallowly enough (fill in what is applicable at the time).
@ Revenwen~
Your story made me so sad. I am praying for you. I applaud your courage!
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So, that which is “unheard of in Bible times” is not to be permitted of women in modern times. Even accepting this premise for the sake of argument, Proverbs absolutely puts the lie to the notion that a married woman has no place outside the home:
She considers a field and buys it;
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
She dresses herself with strength
and makes her arms strong.
She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night. (Proverbs 31:16-18, ESV)
And:
She makes linen garments and sells them;
she delivers sashes to the merchant. (Proverbs 31:24, ESV)
What about Deborah? Does not her example demonstrate that women may exercise religious, political, judicial, and military leadership functions. So much for barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. What about all the women whose contributions are described by Rachel Held Evans at http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-women-leaders ?
Also, if today’s women are limited to those roles for which there are Scriptural examples, would not the same principle apply to men? According to this principle, no Christian man may be any one of the following:
Pilot
Astronaut
Physicist
Doctor of psychiatric medicine
Optometrist
Computer programmer
Auto mechanic
Truck driver
Nuclear engineer
Electrician
And on and on and on
The only good I can see in applying this we-can-only-do-what-was-done-in-the-Bible rule is that there couldn’t be anybody called a Senior Pastor, or any other kind of pastor in the modern sense of the term.
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Yes – Diane – you are right about WOFers not suffering. They just don’t acknowledge any suffering because it might give the devil a foothold.
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“Am I against higher education–absolutely NOT! But when a young girl leaves her home and the protection of her father (unheard of in Bible times), and pursues a college education, where she will be inundated with feministic ideas(secular or Christian college), spends all of her time, money, thoughts, etc. pursuing this career, it is unlikely that when she gets married she will suddenly drop all of that investment and “new thinking” and be content with her role as home-maker.”
This is just begging the question. We should do a poll on the number of women college grads who ended up being SAHMs or homemakers after they were married.
” HOWEVER, a young woman, until she is married, CAN pursue a world of knowledge through alternate forms of higher education (a much better education than a stale college classroom can offer), remain under the protection of her father, train daily for her role someday as helpmeet (there is a lot of training if it is done right–one of which is being a helpmeet to her Dad), and she may very well pursue means of bringing in income. I know many, many young women who are flourishing in their gifts, and making great money at it while they are “in waiting”.”
Does this author give proof of these examples?
“We have leaned on the college degree(another lie we’ve been told) as the ONLY key to making money, or being successful, or preserving us in a tragedy. What a lie! There are so many other avenues of industry and provision, (which is one of the points I was making in my post), that we have virtually forgotten because we’re too busy pursing what someone said we needed to make it in the world.”
Nobody believes a college degree is the entrance to nirvana. What I personally support, though, is each child coming of age having the right to make that decision for themselves. I chose not to pursue college though I was accepted into two reputable universities. Every young adult should have that choice. It should not be made for them, even if just by ill preparing them to function as an adult in this world.
Yes, homemaking is an art. Why does anyone think Martha Stewart Omnimedia grew as large as it did? (I’m a fan, by the way.) I love DIY/homemaking blogs. I homeschool as well. I wear my long hair in a bun. Does that sound like a flaming feminist? 🙂 I want my daughters to love Jesus and love other people. But, some day, they will choose for themselves. I can only hope I’ve set a good example.
That author has an agenda.
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“That author has an agenda.”
And girls and young women are the unwitting victims she would sacrifice on the altar of her ambitions.
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“This is just begging the question. We should do a poll on the number of women college grads who ended up being SAHMs or homemakers after they were married”
Ha! I was volunteering at my daughters school a few years ago with a group of other moms. Most of whom where SAHM. One was a former secret service agent. Another has a masters in finance and was a former broker. One was an architect who still works part time on special projects….and the beat goes on. Most them worked in their chosen fields for at least 15 years before staying home. I think it makes them more interesting well rounded moms.
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‘…when a young girl leaves her home and the protection of her father (unheard of in Bible times)…’
Um, not so sure such a status was unknown in Bible times. Immediately my favourite OT heroine from my childhood springs to mind: the little Israelite girl who was taken from her home as a prisoner of war and made to serve the wife of the Syrian army commander. Life in Ancient Damascus must surely have been more hostile to faith than modern day college campuses which have a variety of student Christian associations to choose from? Yet her faith stayed strong and she was instrumental in setting in motion the events that culminated in the healing of Naaman.
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Wonderful example, Estelle! Good catch!
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Sorry, I’m racing off to work and haven’t taken time to read all of the comments, but there was a study done of by UTexas Austin, that shows that although many 18-year-olds walk away from the church, the ones who get a 4-year college degree are MORE LIKELY to return to their faith that those who go no further than high school. Also adults with 4-year college degrees are more likely to marry and less likely to divorce.
Click to access Regnerus_Uecker.pdf
http://nationalmarriageproject.org/resources/when-marriage-disappears/
(You can get the facts from the summary. The report itself is a free printable PDF.)
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Thanks, SKJ.
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Estelle said:
Wow, excellent response, Estelle.
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Another thought re the little slave girl: She was a little girl who we would expect to still play with dolls while college age girls today would have been considered adult women.
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Future Commanders of Holy Gilead: The Role-Playing Game.
And when you’re busy Outbreeding the Heathen, you don’t want your breeding stock/wombs to get Uppity.
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Did “the right man” become “the right man” by paying $20 grand in bride-price?
(Which I’ve heard of happening in some of the Comp/Patrio comment threads.)
Cash on the barrelhead…
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If I was a wife-beater, I know which church I’d convert to.
Win-Win Situation!
You didn’t say the incantation exactly right, or draw the pentacle and circle exactly right, or use the exact spell components needed to work the Mighty Magick.
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Leave it to Kamilla:
https://twitter.com/TheBraveLass/status/389869651976413186
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Umm, no, Kamilla. They are subjected to degradation and, sometimes, imprisonment, for wanting a life outside the narrow, myopic view of their fundamentalist parents/church.
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Kamilla is the same person who comes to CJ’s defense.
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She responded.
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“Kamilla is the same person who comes to CJ’s defense.”
Oh, well, that explains it all right there. Can we expect someone who supports child molestation to show compassion for these young ladies? I think not.
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Hang on – I’ve got more. I just decided to check out her tweets:
https://twitter.com/TheBraveLass/status/389872219821584384
https://twitter.com/TheBraveLass/status/389879906487660545
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Anti-family? Do they even know you have 7 kids? Do they have any idea how many families have been ripped apart by the stay-at-home-daughters dogma?
I would laugh, but I’m stunned. This is a serious issue.
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Those are tweets totally unrelated to me. I’m not a part of that conversation. Those are her general thoughts which I’ve seen articulated all over blogosphere.
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I see you have met Kamilla. She has a history of trolling for blog posts on such subjects (and now tweets) and doing her thing. She has a “target” audience she likes to insult. She used to wander over to CBE Scroll years back as all the egals there were her favorite heretics for a while. :o)
I am sure since Kamilla is “anti Feminist” she does not vote in elections, right? She is a favorite of he notorious Bayly Bros.
Kamilla, are you married yet?
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It is becoming embarrassing for that movement that they have so much in common with Muslim thinking concerning women. But they ARE the same underlying principles in how they view women. Thankfully in America we have laws protecting girls/women.
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Kamilla hasn’t posted here on my blog. We have had discussions on Denny Burk’s blog among others. Most recently, Kamilla joined the conversation Twitter conversation I first tweeted about with Janet Mefferd, Boz, and Joe Carter of TGC.
I was intrigued that she responded to the tweet regarding this post. She doesn’t “follow” me on Twitter, so she had to search for my name specifically. I have a closet follower – haha.
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“It is becoming embarrassing for that movement that they have so much in common with Muslim thinking concerning women.”
Explains the “offensive” comment in her tweet. Thanks for lowering my blood pressure.
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I would laugh, but I’m stunned. This is a serious issue.”
BTDT, These are the exact thoughts that go through my mind when I read most of the posts here & on paulspassingthoughts blog. It’s so crazy & extreme. Like a virus or strain of bacteria which heads right for the brain. And it’s inside the minds of very normal looking church folk. Kind of ridiculously funny, but it’s real, so it’s not funny at all. It’s seriously devastating. In reality, it’s the result of wrong choice, fueled by lack of reason. Reason which was traded in exchange for blind religious fervor.
No, girls aren’t getting shot in America by the Taliban for wanting to learn. Kamilla “scores” one there. But Kamilla needs to be schooled, because she isn’t telling the truth. In America, you don’t have to kill off a woman’s education with a gun. In America, women are being treated like property by their “Christian in-name-only” parents in many ways, including the denial of the right to education for women. Let’s think about the common denominators here between the Taliban & “so-called” Christian parents. Loss of freedoms (not just educational freedom) for women in the name of religion. That’s pretty bad. And men are denied rights by the parents as well.
This follower of Jesus Christ is appalled.
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So Kamilla Ludwig justifies the withholding of education from girls so long as you don’t murder them? What else will these American Taliban justify on the basis that girls and women are not being murdered? Lifelong subjugation of a man’s daughter’s as though they were slaves, excepting only in a case where a daughter is turned over to another man’s subjugation? Oh yeah, they do that in the name of patriarchy/complementarianism.
Verily we are witnessing the Talibanization of American fundamentalist/conservative “Christianity.” It would not surprise me should we begin to see isolated instances of honor killings within their ranks.
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“Honey” is a term of endearment. Kamilla hurls it a Julie Anne as condescending, demeaning putdown. HUG, quoting C.S. Lewis on a previous post, reminds us that the followers of the father of lies are ever twisting the meaning of words:
Remember my letter to you regarding semantics, My Dear Wormwood? About redefining words into their “diabolical meanings”?
– Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
For abortion clinic protesters, love now means to condemn and attempt to shame. For most of Christianity pastor now means one who lords it over rather than one who shepherds (at tip of the hat to A. Amos Love). Honey no longer means beloved. It is used as a “polite” substitute for the word bitch.
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While I will reserve the word beloved for only my wife, I am sure that I speak for all who regularly participate here, and also for the great majority of those who only come to read, when I say that, you, Julie Anne, are appreciated, greatly respected and, yes, loved. May you be doubly honored, and more than doubly honored.
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“So Kamilla Ludwig justifies the withholding of education from girls so long as you don’t murder them?”
Yes, Gary, that seems to be her point. And my point was the underlying principles are the same in that movement as is Islamic thinking toward women. They have the same father: Patriarchy as a result of the Fall. And I am not naïve enough to believe that stronger measures would not be taken if it were legal. The underlying principle is key. Methods differ depending on the culture and what is accepted in that community.
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You’re so kind, Gary W.
Dee of Wartburg Watch joined the conversation and had some fun with the sweet topic:
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JA,
I just saw the HuffPost article on Reconstructionism that you replied to on Twitter. Wow!!!
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BTDT or JA, Can you provide the link? 🙂
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Sorry, A Mom.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-caldwell/christian-dominionism-debt-default-_b_4097017.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
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Ah, you’re fast BTDT 🙂 Thanks!
Yes, some might call me a conspiracy theorist, but I’ve said it before, Reconstructionist Movement is the foundation of the destructive subculture, the Homeschool Movement. The key leaders in the Homeschool Movement follow the Reconstructionist Movement principles. Their agenda in the Homeschool Movement is to populate the earth with soldiers for Christ, infiltrate the government, society. It only makes sense why HSLDA is located just outside our Washington DC so they can train the college students how to mingle with political figures, lobby, etc. There is most certainly an agenda and the author of the article is noticing the patterns just as I have found them in the Homeschool Movement. Even when I look through my homeschool curricula, I am finding the agenda. I was absolutely clueless.
This article with Malala is related because the Reconstructionist culture is Patriarchal. The only way this will succeed is if women “embrace” the role that the Patriarchs have for them, to be completely submissive (even in the face of abuse) wives and produce babies.
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Thanks, BTDT. That Reconstructionist Movement Huff Post article is a lot to chew on.
JA, what you said about how you connect the dots between the RM & HM is interesting. I have a lot to learn. Do you have any posts or articles about the RM I can read about?
Are there other connections as well? I’ve seen certain patterns of thinking myself (patriarchal/comp is one), as I’ve learned about diff. “Christian” orgs along the way, which predict where they are headed. It’s not so surprising. And they seem typical or easier to spot as time goes on, even before they chug off the rails & over the cliff. Or before they reveal their agenda.
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Is the Reconstructionist Movement trying to take America back to the ways of the Pilgrims? Or is it trying to enact “God’s judgement” on America? Or both?
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Breeding stock for Culture Warriors, living weapons for the Jihad.
Spawning pits under Isengard, cranking out Godly Uruk-Hai.
Outbreed the Heathen and overwhelm them with numbers — actually very Darwinian.
Or a Live Role-Playing Game — Future Commanders of Holy Gilead.
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Both. First the Coup, then the Cleansing(TM) begins.
Until you have Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue with a Christianese coat of paint.
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Malala Yousafzai to be named honorary Canadian citizen in throne speech
Tuesday, October 15th 2013, 8:01 pm
the canadian press
OTTAWA – Malala Yousafzai (YOO-suhf-zeye), an advocate for girls’ education and the target of a Taliban assassination attempt, will be made an honorary Canadian citizen.
A senior government source confirms that Wednesday’s throne speech will confer the honour on the 16-year-old international figure.
Yousafzai was shot in the head in her native Pakistan by the Taliban in October, 2012 while she was on a bus going home from school.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper met with Yousafzai in New York on Sept. 26 where she discussed her efforts to promote education for women and girls.
Harper also invited her to visit Canada.
Yousafzai, who now lives in England with her family, was the youngest ever nominee last week for the Nobel Peace Prize, which was won by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.
Her memoir, ”I am Malala” was published last week.
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According to the HuffPo article linked to 10/5 @ 5:25 PM, the Christian Reconstructions seek the collapse of the existing political order so that their ultimate objectives might prevail. History would seem to provide at least two examples of the dangers of this type of thinking.
1. Following the fall of Rome, western civilization fell into some 500 years of utter darkness. The darkness fell in the realms of politics, learning, commerce, culture, society and religion. Once the darkest of the Dark Ages came to a close, another half millennium, until the Renaissance/Reformation, was required to claw back to levels approximating the heights of Roman civilization. In my estimation, Christianity largely remains in the relative darkness into which it had begun to descend well before the fall of Rome.
2. As I understand Marxist theory (and I certainly stand to be corrected by those who are better informed), the collapse of the capitalist political order was to be followed by a temporary dictatorship of the proletariat or workers, which would then dissolve, by inexorable laws of history, into a government-free workers’ paradise. The Reconstructionists, by comparison, clamor for a dissolution of the present order into limited and tamed-by-them government in which their version of a “Believers’ ” paradise might naturally occur–apparently by processes looking a great deal like the Marxists’ laws of History. The main difference is that the Reconstructionists seem to think they can skip the dictatorship. Trouble is, wherever Marxism has prevailed, the overthrow of the existing order has always been followed by permanent dictatorship. Where the dictatorship has collapsed, it has not been replace by the promised workers’ paradise.
The Reconstructions simply cannot achieve their version of a “believers’ ” paradise. Should they accomplish their sought-after first step of the collapse of the existing order, there will be either darkness or dictatorship. Either way, true believers will be driven underground — which maybe isn’t such a bad thing, now that I think about it. The underground is the place from which true Faith has always been most vibrant, even today.
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As a Christian, I do not want extremists of my faith to have control over the government under which I live. Christians make the worst sort of dictators, an absolutists do not know how to govern without creating unnecessary hardship on the least among us. To know how well it would work, just look at the current Washington situation, where the entire world economy is being held hostage by a few extremists demanding that the Affordable Care Act be killed. BTW, the ACA was the conservative alternative to true socialism in one of two forms, total government control (as in some European countries) with hospitals owned by the government and doctors employed by government, or single-payer (medicare for everyone). The ACA preserves the private practice of medicine, private hospitals, private insurance companies, etc. So the action seeks to destroy the preferred conservative solution to rising health care costs! Extremism at its worst in action.
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Gary W, An Attorney, or anyone else knowledgeable about this,
After putting my family to bed last night, I stayed up to read some of the comments following the HuffPost article. One commenter recommended a book by Chris Hedges called “American Fascists.” I then stayed up waaayyy past my bedtime reading articulate Amazon reviews on that book. What I read was rather alarming. Has anyone read this author’s works, or have opinions about them? (Anyone not toeing the fundamentalist party line, that is.)
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BTDT,
No, I am not familiar with Chris Hedges. Sounds like he might be worth a read. My own theory is that we are already under a form of fascism I call bureaucratic fascism. My understanding is that in both communism and fascism the state controls the means of economic production. The difference is that the communist state owns the means of production while fascist states technically leave ownership in private hands. In the United States, ownership of the means of productions remains largely in private hands, subject, however, to increasing pervasive bureaucratic control. While it may be the conservative compromise, as noted by An Attorney at 7:34 AM, I view the Affordable Health Care Act as one more implementation of bureaucratic fascism.
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Thanks, Gary W. Having come from one extreme, I’m trying to find some balance in all of this. As my dad told me, “You don’t want the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction, but to fall somewhere in the middle.”
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Which is just fine with the Reconstructionists. Because then THEY can be the Dictators. PERMANENT Dictators, by Divine Right.
When the only difference between Christians and Communist is which Party Line gets recited, something is seriously wrong.
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Julie Anne-
I experienced this type of oppression as a child/young adult as well. It is not only common in the Protestant/Christian community but is sadly quite common among LDS (Mormon) homeschooling families too. I was not allowed to work for anyone except my father, and every time I mentioned going out on my own my mother would tell me how hard and impossible it would be for me to survive with out their support and guidance. Oddly enough, she is a big fan of the Vision Forum, and had me read one of their books on being a Stay at Home Daughter and tried to make me promise to do it.
Luckily she was supportive of me serving a mission for the LDS Church and that is what finally enabled me to break free. When I came home from my 18 month mission she immediately tried to “reign me under control” and sabotaged my every effort to go to school, get a job, and even tried to send me halfway across the country to get me away from my boyfriend. I refused to go so she kicked me out. I ended up staying with my boyfriend’s family for a few months till we got married, but even after we were married she tried to control our relationship and force me to do her will. For almost 2 years I basically had no contact with my parents and very limited contact with my siblings because my parents wouldn’t stop meddling. It was a very nightmarish time in my life… My sister had it slightly easier, but not much. I’ve known several young women (and young men!) to go through similar situations.
It should be noted that nothing in LDS doctrine supports this notion of extreme parental control, nor have I been able to find a biblical support for such behavior. It seems to be a direct result of looking past the mark that God has established for our families. To be honest- other than establishing mothers and fathers as equal partners in raising their children, and some general directions on respect and love within the family structure there is a lot of room for diverse circumstances. Preaching anything more or less than that is twisting the word of God.
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Amanda: Welcome to the blog and thank you for sharing your LDS homeschool experience. I was not aware that LDS also this practice, but it doesn’t surprise me.
How is your relationship with your parents now? Have they stopped meddling? I guess they didn’t read that leave and cleave verse in the Bible, huh? So sad!!
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As a college professor, I am horrified by this. Please counsel these girls that they CAN get out. They can take the GED exam and apply to any college they want with those scores; they don’t need their “transcripts”. If they are over 18, they do not need their parents’ signatures on the FAFSA. In fact, if they are not relying on their parents’ income for tuition, they will qualify for more financial aid. Housing can be problematic, but there are dorms, and other girls looking to share apartments. There is work study to be applied for that will allow them to work while at school and build up some savings. Please pass this information along.
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I think i should mention this does not happen to all home schooled girls> i world for a family that homeschooled their children the daughters are in college and were schooled well enough that at least one was in advance of her age group in schooling..
Those girls who are kept from the internet at home and have other problems can in many US libraries access the internet. They can also check for information on GED”s etc.
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Gary W, I see it differently. I think the government is under the control of large corporate economic interests. We have ‘socialism’ for the corporations and capitalism for everyone else.
As for ACA, something needed to be done. I was covered by health insurance from the day I was born up until three years after my first marriage ended and COBRA ran out. Then the insurance company was allowed to drop me and I could not get health insurance from anywhere despite the fact that even though I was in my late fifties and healthy and would have been profitable.
I called our insurance commissioner for help and was asked if I was poor (I am not; I was doing consulting which allowed me to be home with my terminally ill mother). I was told that I either needed to get a corporate job or marry a man with one. After several years I did the latter, but not for the benefits! If I had not married, i would be eligible through ACA. What would be your solution for people who lose their health care coverage?
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Hello, my fiance from a Palestinian family has been taken against her will after threats of killing my family and her. Her life is much like the one described above. The police are unwilling to do anything to help. Im reaching out to anybody against this point to seek help on her behalf as she is not allowed to. She is kept at home and isolated while her family uses her to clean and cook. This is only a brief explanation of the situation but she is in desperate need of help. If you know anybody that could help in any way please contact me as soon as possible.
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@Anonymous at 8:24 p.m.
You said “The police are unwilling to do anything to help.” Why?
Which country is it you’re referring to where the police and your fiancée are located?
What did the police say was their reason for not getting involved?
Whom received death threats in your family? Who made the threats? How many? Do you know the reason? Witnesses?
How old is you fiancée?
How old are you?
How long have you known each other?
How do you know each other?
Laws vary around the world. You would be best advised to talk with an expert in the country/jurisdiction where this is taking place such as: an attorney who works in this area of the law, a social service agency, or another group with expertise in this area.
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Anonymous, if she is over 18, she has the freedom to move out without her parents’ permission. Perhaps you can help her find a safe place to live – maybe with a trusted family while she gets settled into supporting herself.
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As terrible as this is, it is important to remember that extremist Christians in the U.S. do not attempt to assassinate girls for trying to get an education (in most cases I think they’d simply be disowned by their families), which puts extremist Christians a pretty big step up from the Taliban. Comparing them to the Taliban is simply incorrect and stirs up unnecessary hostility against people who are generally nonviolent, and well-intentioned in their own misguided way.
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