* * *
I’ve been wrong. I’ve had the wrong focus. For me, the Sovereign Grace Ministries fiasco has always been about the sex abuse victims, the spiritual abuse, the women whose voices were silenced, the cover-up of pedophiles, the forced reconciliations, failure to notify authorities (civil, that is), etc. You see, my focus is not right where it should be according to them. It should be on doctrine. Everybody must get on board with the right doctrine. That is the common goal among these folks.
I skimmed SGMSurvivor blog and found this paragraph tucked away in a comment and said BINGO:
The last paragraph of this comment:
I said this before and I’ll say it again. All they see is a guy who “single handedly” ( sorry Brent, Boisvert, etc, I know that isn’t true) took a whole lot of Arminian charismatics and turned them into respectful Calvinists, and ruled 100+ churches into doing whatever he said. Drop apostles, they drop apostles. Change position on tongues, they change positions. Write up a presbyterian type Book of Church order, they write it up. CJ is like a hero to these people. Thye would give their right arm and leg to have his magic power over masses of sheep.
In their eyes, C.J. Mahaney masterminded the impossible. C.J. had the power and influence to shift the doctrinal beliefs of an entire church organization. That is amazing. It is true that doctrine is a foundational issue. I agree that it is important. But I think for these guys, it is THE issue. Nothing comes between them and their doctrine – obviously not even sex abuse. The abuse in their minds must be just a minor oversight. It will get taken care of. The bigger picture is that everybody is on board with the right doctrine because that is what God would want — -to heck with a little toddler getting sexually abused. As long as they have the right doctrine, it will all work out. I mean, life is only temporary on earth, if they have the right doctrine, they have the rest of eternity with God. The abuse is minor in the full scheme of things.
We’ll see what the courts think about that.
* * *
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition. If someone who was in the pastoral ministry said the things to you that you said to me you would cry foul. Some don’t need a title to evaluate God’s servants and attempt to lord over God’s sheep that disagree with them.
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Sorry Wesley
You write…
“Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition. If someone who was in the pastoral ministry said the things to you that you said to me you would cry foul.”
What are you talking about?
What did I say about your “spiritual condition” that you’re upset with?
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Chap, I am surprised that you guys who would decry the SGM guys supposed corner on the truth claim to have the corner on the truth.
I do know exactly what faith is and exactly what faith produces in the lives of believers because Scripture describes it. I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.
I do not believe there are any actions that we can perform that save us or maintain our salvation. Period.
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Chapmaned,
In regards to how Wesley and I both (by his statement of agreement to such in a follow up comment) view the law and how it is NOT about how we become holy, please see my long (sorry for length, didn’t really know how to shorten it) explanation of how the Law, works, and grace fit together in God’s redemptive plan on the post “Who gets to decide what is REAL love.”
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Hi JoeJoe
Was wondering…
Are you a pastor – elder – church leadership?
And what is the name of the church you go to?
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Amos, I am not upset by anything anyone says on this or any forum. I was well aware when I first posted on this forum that I would be in hostile territory and consider to be at fault before I was even heard. I was well aware that my motives would be questioned because of someone else’s actions. I have no problem with it. I do not expect people to treat me with the same grace that I treat others with because I do not know what God is doing in their life.
I understand that people make mistakes. I understand that conformance to Christ is a process that each believer is being put through. I understand that I do not know anything about anyone else’s motivation for their actions. I understand that I am to be gracious to those that I disagree with and understand that their perspective is needed and beneficial in some way to God’s plan for their growth or my growth. Therefore I do not take any comments personal.
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Amos JoeJoe can’t be a pastor, elder, or church leader because they don’t exist. He can’t tell you the name of the church he goes to because you do not go to church but are the church.
I think he is trying to entrap you JoeJoe. 🙂
Just wanted to see what it feels like to close ranks. 🙂
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Thanks wesley
That was the nicest, and realist comment I’ve heard from you…
I have hope for you – that’s why I continue to shepherd, feed, and care for you.
But – you write…
“Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition.”
What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?”
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Wesley
You’re a fast learner – only took a couple of months 😉
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Amos,
I am not in any pastoral ministry. In case you would also ask… I have not had any formal seminary training either. I just do a lot of listening, reading, thinking, praying, meditating. I do help to serve behind the scenes at my church.
I attend New Life Church in Arkansas (it is a multi-campus, non-denominational church, based out of Conway, AR).
Oh, and let me do say this…I agree that pastoralship is a position of ministry. Somebody who takes a title of pastor for the prestige often associated with I would agree has the wrong motives. I don’t think there is a problem in calling somebody a pastor though. What else are you going to call a person in pastoral ministry? A pastor is simply a person in pastoral ministry. It is sounding more like one of your hang ups is simple semantics.
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Wesley
“What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?””
And was I accurate? – Or NOT accurate? – by your standards?
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Oh, and I agree that “the church” is not any building or groups of building or organizations. “The church” is the whole body of believers. We use the term church when referring to the physical location we gather as a body of believers for worship, praise, and hearing from those who help to equip us for further service to our Lord, because it is simpler to say. It is in a technical, biblical sense, not entirely accurate. In everyday conversation though, it suffices, and people know what we are talking about.
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JoeJoe,
Based on what I read in the Bible, the law was introduced SO THAT SIN WOULD INCREASE.
The ONLY law to them was:
Don’t get knowledge, because once you get knowledge, you will know that you are a sinner.
That was the purpose of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
They were naked and were not ashamed. Once they got knowledge, they were ashamed to be naked.
God asked Adam…WHO told you that you were naked? That question is of importance.
So, I say that because they were in sin prior to eating of the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Without that knowledge, they were innocent, but with that knowledge, sin was imputed to them.
When is sin imputed to a person? When is it not? Why is it not? Why is it?
Anyway, that was their spiritual death date…but God re-established that relationship with a sacrifice, and from then on, Adam sacrificed to God, maintaining that relationship. It was not severed forever. The sacrifice re-established it. Then Jesus comes along and states that He (Jesus) is the last sacrifice ever needed for all sins, past, present, and future.
Either you believe that, or you don’t. If you believe it, then you live by faith. If you don’t, you live by the law. You keep on referencing the law. You keep on looking at the law for moral compass. You keep looking at the law for God’s approval.
Either it’s law, or it’s grace thru faith. Which do you prefer? It certainly cannot be both.
Since Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, then yes, it was all part of his redemptive plan…but once we are saved, stop looking at the law of Moses, because Abraham is our example of how faith works, and the law is not of faith at all. If that be the case, stop looking to the law for moral compass. Abraham didn’t need that moral compass, otherwise God would have given the law to Abraham.
Ed
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JoeJoe – I sent this to Ed earlier – I’ll post it to you now…
It’s got nothing to do with semantics – this is a Danger – Danger warning…
JoeJoe
In my experience with having been ordained, in “Leadership.” And…
In my experience with the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
“Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV
An “Idol,” an addiction, difficult to lay down, hard to walk away from.
Because, **Today’s** “Titles” come with something “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc…
All “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-7. All those things Jesus spoke against.
All those things that are highly esteemed among men.
Luke 16:15
…but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God.
Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to “Exercise Authority.” Mark 10:41, Mat 20:25.
Peter, 1 Pet 5:3, said, Neither as being lords over God’s heritage… but, examples…
In my experience…
Everyone who assumes the “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader,”
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much a servant, eventually…
Will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s sheep. (Guilty as charged.)
That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.”
When you assume the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
automatically – you are “Exercising Authority” and “lording it over” God’s heritage.
Because that “title” comes with – Power – Profit – Prestige…
Yup – “Titles” become “Idols” – And if you will NOT bow to the “Title” – the “Idol”
“Church Discipline” will be on the way…
Still – Other sheep – Will look for guidence – From a “Mere Fallible Human”
And – NOT – Look to the “ONE” Shepherd and Bishop of their soul – Jesus.
————-
I now see many dangers with “titles” – for everyone
They are taking the name of the Lord – In Vain…
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JoeJoe,
I started out by saying:
The ONLY law to them was:
It appears that I forgot to include who them was…Adam and Eve…sorry.
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Amos you seem to imply you know the heart of everyone in shepherding ministry in a local congregation of believers. You claim that others that do this are wrong but then you do it.
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Just wondering Chap what the fixation with Abraham is about. Are you Jewish by any chance?
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Wesley
“What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?””
And was I accurate? – Or NOT accurate? – by your standards?
Come on – play along – We’ll have some fun –
Fun – Is that allowed in your world?
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Wes,
You state:
“I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.”
Sin is only imputed when you have KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
Deuteronomy 1:39
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
No knowledge…no imputing of sin.
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Everything is allowed in my world Amos–no law–but everything is not expedient.
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Chapmaned,
Salvation, God’s view of whether or not we are righteous, is, and always has been, based only on faith. Before Christ’s sacrifice, it was a faith looking forward without seeing, based on God’s promise. After Christ’s death, it was a faith looking backward, seeing that God’s promise was fulfilled.
The Law does not impart righteousness. Following the Law, does not impart righteousness. The Laws shows us our sinfulness. I believe it is incorrect to say that the law was given so that sin could “increase.” Why would God want us to sin more? Rather, it was to show us just how far from the mark we are, and how so very much we need a Savior.
Making sacrifices under the Law also is not what imparted righteousness. The sacrifices were a symbol to show that they had faith in the promise of God. God commanded they make the sacrifices, so they had faith in God and did. They were also a foreshadow of the final sacrifice to come, Jesus’ death on the cross.
God gave the Law. God would not give something evil. What sort of Father would do that? It is a partial picture of God’s character. The full picture of God’s character was revealed through Christ (though we still have difficulty really seeing the picture being finite people). Some of the commands given in the law were still echoed by Jesus and the apostles. In the Law, it says to not commit adultery. Jesus said the same thing. So how exactly is following these laws a bad thing? We do not follow Jesus and his commands (some of which are old testament laws) because we have to, or because we think that it in some way makes us more righteous than somebody else, we follow them because we love our Savior and want to follow his ways and commands out of our love.
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Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:12-17)
The context of one of your oft referenced passages indicates that sin entered the world by Adam and that death, the result of sin, reigned from Adam to Moses. Seems that sin caught Abraham somewhere between Adam and Moses since verse 12 indicates that all from Adam to Moses sinned.
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Wesley asks:
Just wondering Chap what the fixation with Abraham is about. Are you Jewish by any chance?
My response:
Why are you not fixated with Abraham? I am a son of Abraham.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
We worship the God of _____________, Isaac, and Jacob.
It does not begin with Paul, or Adam or Peter.
By the way, my best friend is a Christian of Jewish descent. Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews (plural). The Apostle Paul said that there is much advantage of being a Jew. They hold the oracles of God. That means that the Gentiles have not cornered the market on the God
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Wesley
Come on man – play along – Don’t be a party pooper…
Can’t you tell I like you – You give as good as you get – We just dis-agree – today.
It wasn’t a set up with JoeJoe – believe it or NOT I do care about you – and Pastors…
Even some of my best friends are pastors – Well, many are ex-pastors – now.
I’ve ministered to many who have been burnt – burnt-out – kicked-out – crawled-out –
of “the Abusive Religious System.” Both “Leaders” and those the’ve “led” -The carnage on both sides is horrific…
“What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?”
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Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to have found the law to be good as well.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Romans 7:12)
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Wes,
I agree “for all have sinned.” Did I not say that 3 or 4 times already?
I asked:
When is sin NOT IMPUTED?
When is it imputed?
The answer is in your quote, but not your explanation.
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Chap why is death, the result of sin, reigning over people who sin is not imputed to?
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Wes,
The issue with Paul is found in Romans 7. He was ALIVE before the law. but when the law came (for him), he died (spiritually). It wasn’t by “inspiration of the Holy Spirit” at all. It was by KNOWLEDGE OF THE LAW. Read Romans 7 AGAIN from it’s beginning.
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Chapmaned,
Wes,
You state:
“I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.”
Sin is only imputed when you have KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
Deuteronomy 1:39
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
No knowledge…no imputing of sin.
Are you really implying that because the Law had not been given to Moses yet, that Abraham and others from his time did NOT sin because they didn’t know what sin was??? It seems like that is what you are saying.
How do you deal with Romans 3:23 then? “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
Also, it was recognized that sin was capable even from the earliest times. Look at Genesis 4:6-7. “Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
People knew the concept of right and wrong and sin. Even without the Law, they had knowledge of sin.
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Ed
Yes – glory to God….
“Why are you not fixated with Abraham? I am a son of Abraham.”
Father Abraham had many sons. 😉 😉 😉
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Is not God the God of Adam and Noah as well? If I remember Jesus is called the last Adam not the last Abraham. Semantics gentlemen……semantics.
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Wes,
Spiritual death (simply separation from God), Wes…is passed on to all men, however, sin is NOT imputed where there is no law.
Where was the separation with Abraham? There was none, until he died in the flesh, then he went to Abraham’s bosom.
You keep ignoring that sin is not imputed where there is no law. I continue to agree “for all have sinned”. That is not the issue. It is when sin is NOT imputed.
You cannot be convicted of a law that you know nothing about. Not even God’s law.
Sin was NOT imputed to Abraham, even tho “for all have sinned”. If sin was imputed to Abraham, then he would not be with God now. There was no law.
No law = Grace
Law = Wrath
Romans 4.
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Cool Chap.
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Wesley
Take a chance – be willing to lose your life – humble yourself.
Why NOT ask Jesus what you should do – MY Sheep Hear – My voice…
“What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?” That was bad…
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Wesley
😉 😉 😉
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JoeJoe
You said:
“Are you really implying that because the Law had not been given to Moses yet, that Abraham and others from his time did NOT sin because they didn’t know what sin was??? It seems like that is what you are saying.
How do you deal with Romans 3:23 then? “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
I never implied what you said at all.
I said time and time again that I agree “for all have sinned”. Hello?
I said that sin is not IMPUTED where there is no law.
If you don’t know what imputed means, it means that it cannot be used against you. It is not placed on your charge.
Can you please read 1 John 3:9 and look at the word “cannot” please.
It does not say “should not”.
Why? Sin is not imputed because we are not under the law.
Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Sin is only imputed when you have knowledge of sin. What was the name of that tree in the garden? Was eating of that tree the only sin of Adam and Eve? No…being naked was, because God asked, “Who told you that you were naked?” They covered their shame (nakedness)…they realized that they were naked. Before getting knowledge…no sin was imputed.
Romans 7:**
7 …I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 …For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
No law = alive
Law = death
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Wesley
I double dare you… 🙂 🙂 🙂
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LOL………LOL……
Amos your blanket statements that all people involved in the shepherding ministry in a local congregation are motivated by pride and in error speaks of a deficient spiritual condition. Since I am one of these people and the only one that you are currently conversing with I assumed you were evaluating my spiritual condition.
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.
.
Rom 4:7*
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered.
Hey I’m blessed – God does NOT impute my sin
And – He covers it…
I like Jesus – a lot
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Wesley
Ahh Yes – the old “Double Dare” gets em every time…
Give me a couple of minutes to respond – I was just about to leave…
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Wesley – Thanks for trusting me…
Well, once again, I have NOT explaine my self properly.
My argument is NOT with you – I like you – And believe you love Jesus.
My argument is with “The Corrupt Religious System” that has you in “Bondage.” My argument is with – The Commandments of Men, the Doctrines of men, that result in “Traditions” that Jesus warns “US” about.
Mark 7:13
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
You belong to a “Denomination” that has their own different “Traditions”
You have a “Title/Position” that has their own Traditions”
We make up our own “Traditions” as we go along – We ALL gotem…
And these “Traditions” are so powerful – They make void God’s word…
We read His word – But we see it through this filter – Our Traditions…
We start out with the “Tradition” and try to make His Words fit.
The “Spirtual Abuse” had a tremendous benifit – I had to learn from Jesus
For myself – And he showed me the “traditions” I followed – NOT His Word.
I was in Bondage to Tradition – And did NOT know it…
Think of the movie – the Matrix –
People are trapped in a computer program – thinking there lives are just fine
They all get dressed go to work – day after day – come home start all over again..
Thinking they are free – doing what they want – But they are in Bondage…
And they do NOT know it…
Then there is this band – of outcasts – Who are Free – Trying to help others get FREE and out of the Matrix – the bondage they do NOT know they are in.
They offer them FREEDOM – or to go back into the Matrix
There are two different color pills –
Take One and you know the truth BUT – can never GO BACK to that way of life.
And your desire is to see people set FREE – even at the cost of you life.
Take The other pill – you go back to The Matrix – But NEVER know the TRUTH.
That you are stuck – In the Marix – and in Bondage…
I have seen people – Who did NOT want the “TRUTH”- The believed in Jesus but
They wanted to depend on humans and NOT depend on Jesus.
They decided to remain in “the Abusive Religious System”
That’s is what they were omfortable with – and outside The Sytem was scarry.
And others – some taking years – left “the Corrupt Religious System…
And looked for that LIBERTY that is in Jeeus Christ – Outside “The System”
Any questions so far?
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Amos,
I think part of the problem that Wesley has (and me as well) is that you made a blanket statement that you don’t trust pastors-AT ALL. You have made pretty clear that you don’t respect those that call themselves pastors because you believe they don’t fit the qualifications and are misleading (or eventually will mislead) the people they are pastoring. If you asked Wesley, assuming you just met him, “So what do you do?” and he answered, “I’m a pastor at Such and Such Church”, it sounds as if from all you have said that your initial reaction would be one of distrust, believing that he is either abusive to his church, or eventually will be. It shows a lack of respect for what he does. I don’t know Wesley, he seems to handle it just fine. That is still a pretty hurtful thing to say about somebody though.
It seems you are saying that because there is a “potential” for abuse, that the only outcome is that abuse will occur with these people who pastor churches (I am not speaking about those who have shown themselves to be abusive, I am speaking of those who are diligently, though imperfectly because they are human after all, trying to lead their church by serving them).
Just because there is a “potential” for their to be problems, does not mean that there WILL be problems. Just because some call themselves Pastor Bob, does not mean they should give up the ministry because in your estimation they will become abusive. That’s like saying just because their is a “potential” that a husband will cheat on his wife because he thinks his coworker is pretty should stop having sex with his wife. Why should anybody do that?
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Wesley
Everyone knows – Todays Religious System” is Broken – It’s NOT working…
You must have scene lots of stuff that doesn’t seem right to you – you block it out…
But – Folks are leaving by the millions…. For many reasons – Abuse is just one…
.
So they try a bunch of new stuff to tweak it – Make it better.
New Movements – New Music…. whatever – you’re familiar with all the new stuff every year – How to wave flags, Harp and bowl ministry – How to use the Tamborine – Always something new to please God – get His attention – get closer…
And Jesus just asks us to cease from our own works and enter His Rest…
Wesley – talk to Jesus – see what He has to say to you… 🙂
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
Psalms 32:8
I will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
It does take a step of faith to believe and trust
that Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.
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No problem Amos. I too have had to learn that a large part of what I have previously practiced was traditional and cultural instead of biblical.
I do believe there are grave problems in our churches because our churches consist of people. I also do not see in Scripture where God has replaced the churches. We simply need to allow God to correct the problems and continue to use His churches for His glory.
I do not see a biblical reason to jettison the church but I see much that can and must be changed within the church.
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JoeJoe
You write…
“you made a blanket statement that you don’t trust pastors-AT ALL.”
Why should I? Does Jesus ever ask us to follow a “Mere Fallible Human?”
When someone wants to be the leader – they expect folks to follow them…
And they lead folks astray – And we can’t serve Two Masters…
And you left off the other part that siad I love them…
Now – I do NOT trust pastors – At ALL – Been burned too many times.
But – I love them – And warn them often – They are in the most dangerous profession – 80% say pastoral ministry has had a “negative” effect on their families. 77% do NOT have a good marriage – 70% constantly battle depression. And the list goes on…
Anyway, it was after I left “The Corrupt Religious System” of today, tore up my papers, and walked away from “Church Leadership,” that I realized Isaiah, had prophesied about my “Leadership skills.” And the “Leadership skills” of the rest of todays “Church Leaders.” No really… 😉
Isa 3:12 KJV
…O my people, *they which lead thee* cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isa 9:16 KJV
For *the leaders* of this people cause them to err;
and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Some legacy todays “Church Leaders” are creating for themselves…
And Jesus told His Disciples NOT to be called Leaders…
For you have “ONE” Leader – Jesus… Mat 23:10….
If someone calls themself leader???
Are they one of His Disciples?
I’m in agreement with King David…
The Lord is my Shepherd. 🙂
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
P.S. Why do want to follow someone who calls themself “Church Leadership?”
When Jesus said – He, Jesus, is the “ONE” Leader.?
Which pill do you want to take???
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Wesley
“I also do not see in Scripture where God has replaced the churches.”
God is NOT replacing the 501 (c) 3, Non-profit, tax-deductible, Religious corporation. the IRS calls church.
Jesus did NOT re-form “the Corrupt Religious System” of His Day…
He left it and called out many into a relationship with HIM.
And Jesus only Blasted – “The Religious Leaders” – He hung out with the common folks – the sinners – the tax collectors – the least of these…
Wesley – what do you see going on with your “Leaders?” – the ones you submit too?
What kind of a job are they doing? Any corruption going on?
Don’t tell me – But what are you questioning??? Hmmm?
Talk to jesus – He loves you – Forgive you – And ……
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JoeJoe
Can you answer the question at the bottom? thanks
Have you ever wondered why Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders?”
For you have “ONE” leader – the Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB – And NONE did… 😉
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible.
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
**Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
Jesus instructed **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders?”
And a believer calls them self “leader?”
And Allows others to call them “Leader?”
Are they one of “His Disciples?”
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JoeJoe
Who are “The Lost?
What have your “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” taught you???
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This is why I like non-denominations. The preacher reports, we decide if what the preacher reports is so. How? With a fine tooth comb. Expository preaching just doesn’t do it for me. Too many church’s still in the milk, too afraid to dig into that big fat juicy steak (meat), that exposes the hidden secret treasures that God put in the Law and the Prophets and the Writings (Tanakh) that God wants us to find. Instead, we are taught a massive amount of “obedience” to the law of Moses and less about the Faith of Abraham. Then I get accused of having a fixation on Abraham. Hmmmm. Interesting.
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JoeJoe,
You had said:
“Salvation, God’s view of whether or not we are righteous, is, and always has been, based only on faith. Before Christ’s sacrifice, it was a faith looking forward without seeing, based on God’s promise. After Christ’s death, it was a faith looking backward, seeing that God’s promise was fulfilled.
The Law does not impart righteousness. Following the Law, does not impart righteousness. The Laws shows us our sinfulness. I believe it is incorrect to say that the law was given so that sin could “increase.” Why would God want us to sin more? Rather, it was to show us just how far from the mark we are, and how so very much we need a Savior.”
My response:
I totally disagree with your whole assessment here. The promise wasn’t salvation. The promise was eternal life. Now, you may think that this is one in the same, but it isn’t.
We are heirs to the promise that was given to Abraham (And Wes wonders why I harp about Abraham). There was 2 promises made to Abraham.
1. Seed (To inherit #2)
2. Inheritance of Land (Promised Land)
You said that after Christ died that it is faith looking backward seeing that God’s promise is fulfilled.
That isn’t the way that the bible presents it. Faith is an expectation of something in the future, always in the future. Each individual believer’s “inheritance” is in the future, not the past.
Finally you say that you disagree that the law was given so that sin could increase.
From the NIVr version of the Bible
Romans 5:20
The law was given so that sin would increase. But where sin increased, God’s grace increased even more.
Let’s see that from the KJV
Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
From dictionary.com
Abound: to occur or exist in great quantities or numbers
I use an assortment of English translations to compare, but let’s look at the Greek word used in the KJV for the English word abound. As you can see, the word abound is used twice in Romans 5:20
first use=Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #4121
second use=Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #5248
4121 (pleonazo)
To do, make or be more, i.e. increase
5248 (huperperisseuo)
TO SUPERABOUND
I stand by my statements to the law was given so that sin would INCREASE. That is what the Bible states.
What are you guys learning in seminary, anyway?
Ed
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Ed Chapman
Was re-reading some of your comments
chapmaned24 – MAY 2, 2013 @ 7:03 PM
“Wesley, you crack me up with your statement @1:46 “Let me be clear”.
Wow, where have we heard that before, sometimes several times a day?”
Thought you might enjoy this…
Often – When challenging “the Corrupt Religious System” and those who are running the show, AKA, the Leaders, they often start their rebuttal with – The Bible “Clearly” says… It’s “Clearly” in the scriptures… So and so, was “Clearly” speaking about…. God, “Clearly” is asking for…
I’m thinking – With Thousands and Thousands of Denominations, ALL believing they have the truth, and they ALL dis-agree about something, – How “Clear” is it? Really? – Me-Thinks – Kinda “Clear” as Mud. . 😉
I kept getting this word “Clearly” thrown at me. And it made me un-easy… Hmmm?
So – One day I look up the word “Clearly” on my computer dictionary…
And there is this paragraph – After the definition
About those who use this word “Cleary” – Oh – how Jesus loves me…
———–
clearly
**Exaggerators like this word,** along with its cousins
( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like).
Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is conclusory,
**and sometimes even exceedingly dubious.**
As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it—
** clearly and its ilk are ‘weasel words’**—
that is, **unnecessary words** that supposedly
intensify the meaning of a statement, but actually weaken it.
(Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.).
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.
JoeJoe – Anyone – Who is willing to play along… 😉
————-
Who are “The Lost?
What have your “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” taught you???
—————
Now – No going around asking anyone – Or doing a Bible Study on “The Lost.”
Just – What have you been taught by your – “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” 😉
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A Amos Love,
One thing that is “clear” to me, however, is that I am oh so glad that I didn’t attend seminary. These pastors, preachers, teachers are taught how to teach, and what to teach. It’s “obvious” to me that not many instructors are accurate. Spiritual things are not being taught. Carnal things are being taught. And even in the carnal things, they get it wrong, just as I pointed out to JoeJoe above.
Hidden things can’t be found if people are concentrating on “obedience” to carnal commandments. There is only “few” spiritual things that were revealed by Jesus and the Apostles to us that are “within” the Tanakh (The Law, the Prophets, and the Writings). There is much much more to uncover, do discover, which has nothing to do with “obedience” to carnal commandments. Those hidden things that are within the Tahakh is what it is to be spiritually minded. Where are those teachers, preachers, pastors? They are out there, but they are few and far between.
It is said that faith without [good] works is dead. But some have [good] works without faith.
Ed
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Ed – JoeJoe – Wesley – Anyone
Ed – You write…
“One thing that is “clear” to me, however, is that I am oh so glad
that I didn’t attend seminary. These pastors, preachers, teachers
are taught how to teach, and what to teach.”
Seminary? Hmmm? – Or is it – Cemetery???
Does anyone really have any confidence in a Seminary training people today to be “Pastor/Leader/Reverend” for the “IRS Corporation Church” of any Denomination?
If anyone was to check the record of any Seminary today training these young wanna-be’s – they would find their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.
A Seminary should be required by “Law” to post these horrible statistics about their failures, and post the headlines about this dangerous profession, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned” in ALL literature sent to prospective students. 😉
BUT – They will NOT.
They have made “Having a degree” – “Pastoral Ministry” – “Leadership”
into Idols we are to worship… And they will inhance that “Idol”
And “Pay For” – Dearly – To keep the “Good Ole Boys Club” rolling along.
BUT – Maybe I’m exaggerating.
Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers, for the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” and family who are earning a living from these Denominations – and “IRS Corporation Churchs.”
This is from – The Francis A. Schaeffer Institute – And they say…
“…pastors are in a dangerous occupation! We are perhaps the single most stressful and frustrating working profession, more than medical doctors, lawyers, politicians…”
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
• 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
• Fifty percent of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
• Fifteen hundred (1,500) pastors leave the ministry each month
….due to moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches.
This is serious business – Yes?
These folks are supposed to be running the show. And their life is a mess.
And their treasured “Title/Position” that they paid $ for, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned”
is quite hard to find in the Bible. But I cudda missed it. 😉
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Ed – JoeJoe – Wesley – Anyone
This really is serious business for the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” and their families.
A “Title” and “Position” – NOT found in the Bible.
Could that be a clue? Why so many “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” do NOT last?
This is more info from a ministry working with “Hurting Pastors.”
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
# 80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…………..Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
……………because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
# 50% of the ministers starting out will NOT last 5 years.
# 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
#1 reason pastors leave the ministry…
Church people are not willing to go the same direction and goal of the pastor.
WOW!!! –
80% say pastoral ministry negatively affected their family
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
50% will NOT last five years. – NOT a good record for these world class Seminaries.
So – Am I exaggerating the dangers of “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” And Seminaries?
“their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.”
IMO – these Denominations and Seminaries, training “Pastor/Leader/Reverends,” – “Must” tell these young wanna-bes, **before** they spend all that money for a degree. – That they are entering a most dangerous profession “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.” Dangerous for both the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends.” and their families. Yes?
And, there’s NOT one of His Disciples with the “Title” Pastor/Reverend in the Bible.
BUT – they will NOT. – There are too many “Idols” to $ feed.
So – Does anyone really have any confidence in a Seminary training people today to be “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” for the “IRS Corporation Churchs.” of any Denomination?
Does anyone really have any confidence in a “Pastor/Leader/Reverend”
trained by a Seminary training people for a “Title/Position” – NOT in the Bible.
So – Am I exaggerating the dangers of “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” And Seminaries?
“their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.”
Are they – Seminaries? Or – Are they Cemetarys?
Yes Ed – I’m glad also that you did NOT attend Seminary.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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A Amos Love,
And yet, they claim that they were “called”. Let’s do a *69 and find out who called…lol.
Ed
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Ed Chapman
Yeah – I hear that a lot – I was “Called.” Heck – I thought I was “Called.” BUT…
God just gave me what I wanted – My Desires of My heart – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
It sounds so spiritual to be “Called – But Today – I think it’s…
God will give you what you ask for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.” 😦
“A Little Bit Extra” comes for us thinking we know what’s good for us.
1 – The Israelites, in the wilderness, wanted something…
they thought was good for them. Something God hadn’t intended for them.
God’s people asked for meat. Hmmm? Does that sound like a bad request?
But – “He gave them flesh till it was coming out of their nostrils.” Num 11:4-20.
And something “A Little Bit Extra.” He sent leanness to their soul.
Psalm 106:13-15.
…they waited not for his counsel: But lusted… and tempted God…
And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.
Warning – Warning – your request can come with – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
———–
2 – The Israelites, in the promised land, wanted something…
they thought was good for them. Something God hadn’t intended for them.
God’s people asked for a King. Hmmm? A Leader???
God gave them what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
1 Sam 8:7
And the LORD said unto Samuel,
Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee:
for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me,
that I should not reign over them.
God was willing to give them what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
Samuel warned the people.
1 Sam 8:11
This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots,
and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
Your King will take your sons.
Your King will take your daughters.
Your King will take your fields.
Your King will take your vineyards.
Your King will take your oliveyards.
Your King will take the tenth of your seed.
Your King will take your menservants.
Your King will take your maidservants
Your King will take your asses.
Your King will take the tenth of your sheep.
and you shall be the Kings servants…
1 Sam 8:19-20
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel;
and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us…
That we also may be like all the nations…
So, they got their King – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
Yeah – And How did all these Kings work out for the folks – ouch!!!
—————–
Sounds to me like today – Jesus says – I’ll be your “ONE” Shepherd – Leader.
But – the folks reject Jesus as Shephered…
And – Want a “Mere Fallible Human” to be their shephered…
So – we also may be like all the churches… 😦
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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Ed
And those who say they are “Called” to Pastoral Ministry.
Are getting what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
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Amos,
I think we are going round and round in circles, and our conversations at the moment aren’t getting anywhere. In a lot of ways, we are very much on the same side. I think we both want to see grace increase, and reliance on the Law decrease. Maybe part of the problem is in our definitions. Maybe part of the problem is a difference of semantics or in how we are saying things. I do think you are wrong in your assement that there are no true pastors because nobody can fulfill the qualifications. I highly doubt you will convince me otherwise. Simply put, I believe your hermaneutics, exegesis, logic, and reasoning are wrong. I don’t think you are a bad person because of it. I just think you are wrong.
Probably the sadest thing to me is that I believe this will keep you from learning and encouragement. There are a lot of good pastors out there. Good people genuinely biblically trying to follow Christ and his example. Can they be hard to find? Perhaps. Because you immediately disqualify them though, that means you should not ever listen to any of them. I am including not only those who have gone to seminary and lead a church, but anybody who has the gift of pastoralship, as you don’t have to lead a church to really be a pastor. If you do, then you contradict yourself and you do not really believe what you say. Thus, you rely on your self. Granted, we must all rely on our selves to one degree or another (aided of course by the Holy Spirit), but if we never listen to the teaching of others, we miss out on what the Holy Spirit is guiding through them. This isn’t about “coming under their authority” of which they have none. It is about allowing God to speak to you through whatever means he wants to, even through the teaching and wisdom of a pastor.
Good day.
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This is a new issue I had not heard of until I was digging thru comments of a twitter feed to see what caused a Christian to be so bitter and found he was somehow connected with this. As to this being connected to doctrine, I still believe our actions are connected to our personal doctrinal beliefs, and we should not so lightly dismis and run down all doctrine. As I was reading this morning I just happen to read this verse:
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
So we are to abide in “Right” doctrine. But let’s not forget the real culprit here and that is the issue of sin. The issue of sin will be at the heart of any wrong doctrine. Sin causes man to wrongly interpret scripture to conform it to how he or she wants it to be.
Just a side note: We need to be careful that our anger towards things that have happened to the children does not turn to hate and bitterness, driving us away from a right walk w Christ. I have seen what bitterness has done in my own family causing the breakup of a family because one incident, which had nothing to do with abuse, turned a heart from loving God, to anger, then bitterness to sin then to the breakup of a home. I know some of us have been wounded by others, but lets not let their actions control our lives. To escape that bondage we are to pray for and do good to them. (Doctrine of Christ) may God bless each of you.
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Welcome, Darrell. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you that the issue is sin, not doctrine. Your scripture reference is a good one.
Can you help me out? I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding you – – are you talking about the anger which is a result of the divisiveness we have seen? So in other words, are you saying that too much focus on divisiveness can drive us from Christ?
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Sorry, no I was not referring to issues that seem to divide us. Referring back to my post I was talking about people who have hurt us. I understand getting angry at people who hurt us or even over issues such as this. It angers me to see this kind if stuff. But our anger can quickly move to bitterness pushing us away from God, affecting our decisions, our families… Etc. Since I saw the devestating effect it had in my own family over a very minor thing, I am always checking myself and have a concern for others that they can be healed and not be controlled by those who hurt them. Please don’t take this as I am accusing anyone of anything. It was not my intention. Just my heart to see others to continue in a walk w Jesus and not letting Satan turn them away. Then they can take that and help others
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I appreciate your words, Darrell. It’s too bad that sometimes we have to go through pain to learn valuable lessons. Thanks for sharing your insight here. I’ve taken your words to heart.
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