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Kevin Swanson spews rhetoric: Dead embedded fetuses in wombs for women on birth control pills!
I get slightly annoyed, no, actually royally peeved when people use their position of leadership and influence to push their agenda. I’ve been on the inside of the homeschool movement and seen how this works. The Christian “homeschool movement” is staunchly pro-life. It is normal for Christian homeschoolers to participate in pro-life rallies, walks, etc.
Kevin Swanson used his position of authority within the homeschool movement recently. He actually made a fool of himself to the world. Here are snippets from his bio taken from his Generations with Vision website:
Homeschooled himself in the 1960′s and 70′s, Kevin Swanson and his wife, Brenda, are now homeschooling their five children. Since graduating from his homeschool and then serving as student body president of a large west coast university, he has gone on to other leadership positions in corporate management, church, and other non-profits. Kevin has 35 years of experience in the homeschooling movement and serves as the Director of Generations with Vision – a ministry he founded to strengthen homeschool families around the country. As a father who wants to leave a godly heritage for his own five children, Kevin’s passion is to strengthen and encourage the homeschooling movement all over the world, and to cast a vision for generations to come. For the last 4 years Kevin has hosted a daily radio program – Generations Radio – the world’s largest homeschooling and Biblical worldview program that reaches families across the US and in over 80 countries.
Kevin has also served as the Executive Director of Christian Home Educators of Colorado for the last nine years. He has also authored several popular books for homeschoolers, including Upgrade-10 Secrets to the Best Education for Your Child, The Second Mayflower, the Family Bible Study Guide Series, and others. Serving as a passionate supporter of home education, he has been interviewed on hundreds of media outlets, including Dr. James’ Dobson’s Focus on the Family and the Fox News Network.
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The dude is a Christian homeschool leader who has a name and is in the public spotlight. He has a radio show. People are listening to him. They believe him. They trust him. Kevin is connected with the movie, Birth Control: How Did We Get Here?, I discussed here R.C. Sproul, Jr. and The Birth Control Movie.
It’s interesting that last week both of these men said absurd statements. I’ll get to Kevin’s in just a sec.
Just a reminder of Sproul’s tweet which I discussed here: R.C. Sproul, Jr. on Birth Control.
Sproul’s tweet: Birth control, like abortion, is sexual bulimia
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Both of these men have an agenda against birth control. We have to connect the dots. They are both part of the homeschool movement , pro-life, full-quiver, and subscribe to Patriarchy.
The director of the movie, Kevin Peeples gave this quote in which we can see the agenda as well:
Kevin Peeples, director of the movie Birth Control: How Did We Get Here?, argues that the only way to be “pro-life” is to be anti-contraception as well as anti-abortion. Without contraception, there would be less people having sex with contraceptives that could potentially fail, causing them to seek out an abortion. “Contraceptives are the cause of abortion. In fact, if we did not have contraceptives in this country, we would not have anywhere near the abortion rate we do now,” he claims. Source
The promotors of this movie want to overtake the world with Christian offspring. How better to do that than get rid of birth control!
Here is a short clip of an outrageous comment from Kevin Swanson that is going viral. Keep in mind his agenda when listening. I’ve quoted his words below.
Pastor Kevin Swanson Claims Women on Birth Control Have Dead Babies in their Wombs – YouTube
Kevin Swanson:
I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on women’s wombs after they’ve gone through the surgery, and they’ve compared the wombs of women who were on the birth control pill to those who were not on the birth control pill. And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb. They’re just like dead babies. They’re on the inside of the womb. And these wombs of women who have been on the birth control pill effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of little babies.
This comment has created quite a response around the internet, as you can imagine. Here are a few choice comments:
Ooh! I can do it, too! Look:
I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on people’s brains after they’ve gone through the church, those who went to church every Sunday, and they’ve compared them to the brains of people who abstained from church. And they have found that with people who went to church, there are these little tiny lesions, these little tumors, that are embedded in the brain. They’re just like dead brains. They’re on the inside of the head. And these brains of people who have been going to church, effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of intelligence. Link to this comment* * *
All those itsy-bitsy, teeny-tiny dead fetuses embedded in the uterus. This kind of shitte can only happen when people get abstinence only sex education AND brain damage from exposure to AM Radio. Link to this comment
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Ugh, do not dismiss this one too easily. To my ear, that “graveyard of tiny babies” trope is exactly, perfectly tuned to be a self-reproducing meme. It can be reduced to a one-sentence “elevator pitch”; the whole idea can be conveyed in a tweet. It instantly conveys a striking visual image. It hooks neatly into things girls are taught about menstruation and gains credibility and memory stickiness from that association. Once heard it cannot be unheard, and any woman who hears it is never going to feel the same way about taking the pill again.
You are in on the birth of a new meme. Like watching a rattlesnake emerge from the egg…Link to this comment
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The last commenter is exactly right. I have been in this movement long enough to know that people will take Swanson’s words as the Bible truth. They will take his information and spread it from person to person because they are concerned about these little dead implanted babies/fetuses. His comment will undoubtedly cause some women who do not have critical thinking skills engaged to grieve and mourn the loss of these “dead babies embedded in their womb.” His unfounded words (he provides no sources for his claims) cause harm to many individuals. This is WRONG.
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On Twitter, people were certainly talking and one person even sent a pic to Mr. Swanson. Here’s one I found: http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/5363412/il_fullxfull.245003627.jpg …
Kevin Swanson’s Generation Radio Facebook page included a linked article and readers left comments and asked questions about the interview. Here’s one from an OB/GYN named Addie Devant. Do you suppose she’s seen a few “wombs?”
And finally, a voice of reason. Steve Dawson sums it up quite nicely:
Christian leaders have a responsibility when they speak. I am angry at Kevin Swanson for using his position to spew nonsense on unsuspecting people. This is a form of abuse. It is using manipulation, spewing unfounded information in an attempt to control people and their personal choices. Is it any wonder the world laughs at Christians? Once again, it comes back to love. There is no love in his rhetoric. It’s all about him and his agenda. Ugh.
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UPDATE Feb 4, 2013 8:50 Pacific time. I decided to respond on the Facebook wall and ask Kevin for references again. Here is my comment. Let’s see if he respond and if the comment remains.
Update 9:19 Pacific: I just decided to bring RC Sproul, Jr. into the discussion and just tweeted him asking him if he knows the sources for Kevin’s comment:
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
I don’t know where to start with Swanson’s insane statements. And there are women (and men?) who actually believe this? I’m just speechless.
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Yes, it is absolutely true. Just as there are pastors who spiritually abused and the sheep follow blindly, the homeschool movement acts in the same way with power happy leaders who bait people emotionally. The people lose their common reasoning and critical thinking skills get disengaged and buy the rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. I’ve seen it happen so many times. Now that I’ve seen the pattern for spiritual abusers in the church, it’s easy to see the same patterns in the homeschool movement.
Men are revered in this environment (patriarchy). If a man says it and he is a leader in the movement, you better believe people are listening.
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The rhetoric behind this is baffling. Why anyone would listen to this and believe it at face value is absurd. But, then people who do are like lost sheep. They are willingly led in which ever direction the “oh so wise one” of the day will lead them.
Any person with a brain could sit and think about the ramifications of a woman walking around with a tiny fetus graveyard. So, full disclosure, I have been married for 20 years now, and I have been on the birth control pill for 15-16 of those years. I have birthed two children. If I had dead fetuses in my womb, wouldn’t I be having major medical issues? I have been seeing the same ob/gyn for the past 11 years. I trust her and we have open discussions about birth control options. I would think that she would have told me by now if this is what the pill was doing to my body.
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Exactly, Kathi. Again, what you have is a group of people who are taught to follow, not question authority. The same spiritual abuse principles apply within the homeschool movement. It is baffling.
Regarding embedded dead babies – – -what does he thinks happens each month with menstruation? Not only that, when I was pregnant with Hannah, I bled profusely. Back then they were just starting to use ultrasounds, but the OB didn’t bother using it. I now know that I was carrying a “vanishing twin”. I was told that my body would naturally reabsorb the deceased twin. Not only is this dude doing a disservice to Christians in general, by him stating publicly that he was a homeschool graduate, he is making a laughing stock of homeschoolers and their biology curricula. Give me a break.
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This nonsense is also spiritual abuse. I can’t believe he said this. Well, really, I can believe it. Telling damaging lies in Christ’s name? I wouldn’t want to be him on Judgement Day and have to answer for this.
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Okay, I know enough about my body and know enough about BC that this is physically impossible. I really hope he can prove his facts, or graciously withdraw his statements. This makes me “royally peeved” as well, JA, this is ridiculous.
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Yes, the fact that he is a homeschool graduate and he writes books and does the Christian homeschooling talking circuit does not help us homeschoolers who work so hard to break all of the stereotypes. He just keeps us all looking foolish. Honestly, I just can’t begin to comprehend how he actually believes the words that he’s saying.
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I don’t know where to start with Swanson’s insane statements. And there are women (and men?) who actually believe this?
Believe it at the level of “GOD HATH SAID!” because that’s the way it was presented to them; like YEC and Pre-Trib Rapture, a Lose-Your-Salvation level issue. It’s not Swanson speaking, but GOD commanding. And all talk of “physically impossible” is a Lie of the Devil. Culture War Without End, Amen.
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Ugh, do not dismiss this one too easily. To my ear, that “graveyard of tiny babies” trope is exactly, perfectly tuned to be a self-reproducing meme. It can be reduced to a one-sentence “elevator pitch”; the whole idea can be conveyed in a tweet. It instantly conveys a striking visual image.
Exactly like the sound-bite PROOFS! of Young Earth Creationism that take a chapter in a book to rebut. Full-auto barrage of Tweets, each one unable to rebut without half an hour of eyes-glaze-over technical backstory.
“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
— Reichsminister Josef Goebbels, father of the Big Lie strategy
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I think this is why it is affecting me so much and making me angry, HUG, because I’ve seen this propaganda in action. I’ve seen what it does to people – how they change their ways of thinking/behaving due to these people and their absurd ideas.
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This is absolutely nonsense…..
While I am not fond of birth control pills because I tend to be a “natural gal” and like to use alternatives- this makes no sense. Imbedded fetuses! you have got to be kidding?! I am a homeschooling mom and these are definitely stupid remarks. I can just see the unbelieving world just shake their heads at Christians today and wonder -WHAT? Thankfully, I never went with the “groupie” homeschooling thing- it just turned me the wrong way.
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Headless Unicorn Guy
Just for you to know- I am a young Creationist and believe in Pre-Trib because of just studying the Bible, not because of listening to others regurgitate it. So not all people who believe these things are in this crowd. Just a friendly note. 🙂
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RC has responded! And I have replied to his response: https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/298480156257968129
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@trust4himonly, I’ll drink to that…oh, I mean, I agree to that, in regards to Pre-Trib. I am not familiar with the “young creationist” thing, tho. Does it have to do with the Earth/Universe, or mankind/animals? Or both?
But, what an agenda that this guy has. Does anyone remember seeing science fiction movies about this years ago?
You know, it’s stories like this that answers why Christendom is so freaking confused in what they believe, or don’t believe, and the credibility of who taught it.
Remember, at one time, the earth was flat, scientists said…and some very famous people, claiming to be Christians, not willing to rock the boat, bought off on it, and taught it.
Boy, did they have egg in their face when science changed their minds. When science changes, the old info then becomes SCIENCE FICTION.
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Something that occurred to me in his bio:
“serving as student body president of a large west coast university” – Did he graduate college? Why not list the college you went to in your bio? Does he have to build up his “leadership” abilities because his educational experience is lacking? Sorry if that question goes too far, but it just makes me wonder.
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I think those are very legitimate questions. Who doesn’t name your college? That reminds me of Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier who in his bio fails to mention that he has kids. Weird. The likely reason he doesn’t name them is because they have called him out for abuse. Now you’ve got me curious, Kathi.
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Julie Anne,
I wonder if they took the information from these studies and made the erroneous connection between Oral BCP’s and late term abortions?
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:10645871
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Julie Anne – So telling that Sproul, Jr. sidesteps the issue by concentrating on whether or not you are “hostile.” That has to be gotten out of the way before the issue can be discussed. Sure giveaway that he’s been cornered. Then he says he’ll ask Swanson. I guess it’s possible that this is the first he’s heard about it, but I doubt it. Well, at least he “responded.”
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I know, Jeff – he did the same thing with Hannah when she was debating with him, so I was expecting it. All I want is the truth. It’s as simple as that. If Swanson doesn’t have the facts, he needs to fess up and quit monkeying around with people emotionally/spiritually. I’m not done with this. It’s really made me think back to this environment and how people respond to things like this.
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Just imagine if men had to account for each and everyone of the 50,000 sperm in each “load”, to put it bluntly. But that’s the problem: In reproduction, men have absolutely no social accountability. Its easy to for some of them to want to make the rules.
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Oh Julie Anne you got a response from RC! Whoa… you are really getting into the thick of it now!
Wow, seeing all the abuse done to Alex (Calvary Chapel Abuse)- he has had to go through a lot.
Chapmen…. “young creationist” (not big on terms, but whatever) is a term people use for those who believe the earth was created in a literal 7 days.
Side note (not having anything to do with this topic of birth control) The reason I believe this is because I take the Bible at face value. If Noahs ark was on the sea for 40 days and 40 nights- thats what it means; if the Lord was risen in 3 days, thats what it means. I do not think God wants to confuse us by whether one day really means 1000 years. Plus, I always thought it odd for God to be creating one man within a 1000 year span- but hey whatever, sorry to get off track
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Thank you for doing this Julie Anne! I cannot wait to hear if you get any replies. The kinds of statements we hear from professing Christian pastors and/or those who see themselves as leaders sure are eye opening, aren’t they?
This is the same Kevin Swanson that said on his show something like you really need to sell your house so the wife can stay home. If that is not enough, move into a smaller home with a smaller mortgage. If that is not enough, sell that and move into a trailer home and the husband should get two jobs. Seriously. I was shocked. I am so sorry that people follow his advice. I wonder…what kind of home does he live in?
I wonder if it is pretty nice….
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Oh, Julie Anne, you are so hostile! You, yes you! You started it! Haha! Oh my goodness. What a good laugh!
Good points Diane. I wonder if he’s willing to follow his own advice. But why put so much stress on a family and a marriage? It’s not like it’s Downton Abbey where there’s never an “unhappy marriage.” (See how I threw in the Dowager’s bite Julie Anne! 😉 ) I could easily see a husband hold some animosity against his wife for having to work so hard in order to live in such poor conditions just so the wife can fulfill her duty of homeschooling the seed.
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Yeah Kathi- not only animosity…but when would he ever get to even see the children and be the spiritual leader if he is working two jobs?
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Boy, did they have egg in their face when science changed their minds. When science changes, the old info then becomes SCIENCE FICTION.
Fitting a fictional Future into an ever-moving Present is always a bugaboo. Remember all the starships navigated by slide rules, cities on the Moon by 2001, and supercomputers bigger than the Pentagon?
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This is the same Kevin Swanson that said on his show something like you really need to sell your house so the wife can stay home. If that is not enough, move into a smaller home with a smaller mortgage. If that is not enough, sell that and move into a trailer home and the husband should get two jobs.
Somehow I doubt Kevin Swanson has to live in a trailer park.
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IP – thanks for making me look like a fool at my chiropractor’s parking lot laughing in my car out loud by myself. 🙂
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Kathi: You, too: just so the wife can fulfill her duty of homeschooling the seed.
Except this time I’m laughing like a fool in grocery store parking lot. Hilarious!! Homeschooling the seed!!!!! So funny!
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@trust4himonly, Well, I can debate you on the face value stuff, no problem. The earth was around long before man or beast was on it. It’s easy to read carnally, but it’s not so easy to study spiritually, if you are the face value kinda person. I would love to hear your face value of the beasts in Revelation and Daniel. The Bible is written on the spiritual level, as well as the carnal level. The carnal can be understood at face value, but the spiritual cannot be understood at face value. If it were, then the Jews would know that Jesus was the Messiah, because Jesus said, time and time again, “Have you not read…?” Of course they read. It was required at synagogue every Sabbath. But they didn’t understand spiritual things at all. Sorry to be off topic.
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Well folks, we may not have flying cars yet (thank God) but consider this: Dr. Alan Kay, who worked for Xerox back in the early 70s forecasted the “Dynabook” – a device very similar to the iPad. He said, “The best way to predict the future is to invent it.” Xerox Park developed the Xerox Alto in the early 70s and installed about 2,000 of them in Universities all over California. They were connected via Bob Metcalf’s nifty “ethernet” invention and were able to communicate via Arpanet, which would become the Internet we know today. These machines had the first GUI, featured Smalltalk and BCPL programming (forerunner of “C”), and had WYSIWYG text editing, email, a graphics editor and a rudimentary cut and paste function with output to an early Xerox laser printer. Input was by mouse and keyboard.
The Alto was the machine that Steve Jobs saw in 1977 and which led to the Lisa and the Mac. However, the Xerox Promo I’m providing a link to is from 1973. Everything you see is real. No one remembers however, why the actor calls his Alto, “Fred”. Otherwise, it would take 10 years for the public to have access to this sort of technology via the Macintosh, and ANOTHER 10 years before it was adopted mostly through Windows 3.11 in the work place.
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Now, let’s dial back to 1968. Doug Englebart (inventor of the “mouse”) demos the Stanford NLS system during what has become to be known as, “The Mother of all Demos”. This was shown to the audience by way of large screen TV on loan from the Airforce. Englebart communicated with his support team at Stanford 20 miles away from the auditorium via a phone connection – all the data you see was being processed at Stanford and transmitted back to Englebart’s own screen. The NLS system featured a “black on white” display, which was accomplished by inverting the video coming from the midrange (at the time, “mini” computer, as opposed to a mainframe) computer’s display to a “negative” image. It featured keyboard input, a mouse, and a “chord set” that provided text shortcuts – very hard to master and a device that was never adopted.
Englebart and his team invented “hypertext” – something we take for granted and never even consider we’re using when we use Google to search for something. This was the first multimedia production – no one had ever seen a TV production like this before, all engineered remotely by his team at Stanford.
My point in these two posts? The public never sees the future until its the past.
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@ trust4himonly, which three days was Jesus dead for? Are you forgetting that it states “nights”, too? Or do you take that into account, on face value of just 3 days? See my blog by clicking my name.
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And it’s for this reason that the collective, clear-minded evangelicals cringe when we are misrepresented in the media like this :
“Without contraception, there would be less people having sex with contraceptives that could potentially fail, causing them to seek out an abortion. ‘Contraceptives are the cause of abortion. In fact, if we did not have contraceptives in this country, we would not have anywhere near the abortion rate we do now,’ he claims.”
Really?!! Yeah, that’s an awesome idea. Instead of doing the hard work at the root causes to unwanted pregnancy, people like this guy look at the world in an overly simplistic way. If we just yell loud enough against abortion and populate the world with more “good people ” (which, side note, is a lot more like Mormon theology than actual Biblical theology), the whole problem will go away.
Do they really think the issue of promiscuity in the culture at large is going to be solved by LESS contraceptives being available? So people without a Christian worldview are supposed to live by our standard, but if they don’t, they should put themselves at risk to all kinds of diseases, and when they do get pregnant, they will magically want to keep the baby in all circumstances, thereby leading to fewer abortions. HUH?
Or, we could actually do more to understand these deeper root causes and be the hands and feet of Jesus to help provide options for people before they get in those situations in the first place…
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In Kevin Swanson’s own words:
“And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb…”
I respond in the immortal words of Guybrush Threepwood, Mighty Pirate(TM):
“Sounds like a crock of monkey snot to me.”
Note to Mr. Swanson: Junk science does not shore up the credibility of bad doctrine. Just so you know.
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So people without a Christian worldview are supposed to live by our standard…
Note that in Christianese fiction even Utter Heathens speak and think in fluent Christianese and no matter how Heathen(TM) or EEEEvil(TM) a character is, they can NEVER be shown actually DOING anything Evil or Depraved; even the Total Worldly Heathen Jet-Setting Celebrity Journalist of Left Behind is a virgin at 35 and Totally Sexually Pure even before his Altar Call Conversion Scene.
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This Pastor’s comment would be down right humorous if you didn’t know people would actually BELIEVE him!
I bet I could find some almost scientists, professors, and other professionals that state the moon is actually made of green cheese too!
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Serving – Thanks, you made me laugh the first audible laugh today. “Crock of monkey snot” did it for me.
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Hannah – That is the thing that gets me so irate about this stuff. He is messing with people’s heads. People are believing him.
I’ve had no response about sources from Swanson or Sproul this morning. . . . still waiting . . . . tapping my foot . . . . .
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Hey all – over at TWW, we were talking about tweeting and I gave a few Tweeting hints. I decided to publish it here as well. It’s in the top tab: Proactive Response to Abuse. I’m sure I’ll add to it and make it more generic, but this will be the place where we can put ideas on how to positively and proactively deal with abuse. Twitter is great. It gets the word around quickly. Feel free to add comments and I’ll try to keep it organized.
Hmm, I saw it before, and now it’s not there. I might need to get help to figure this out. Hang tight.
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Sad – I’m sorry your comment got stuck in the Spam box. Your link is very interesting. I think that they are looking for ANYTHING to promote their agenda and eschew common sense and even basic understanding of how bodies work (menstruation) in saying what they say.
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Hey Chapmaned – I was not trying too technical here about the specifics of three days. I think it is wonderful that there are those who do and I will be sure to read over your specifics. What I meant is that I just trust by faith that what is given to me in the Word is what I have. The Lord does want me to be in confusion over whether 7 days really meant over a span of 1000 years. I just trust that the word is correct in the info it gives me and I try to use my common sense in the process. I just think ok, why would it have to take a mighty and awesome God 7000 years to make the earth? I think He is quite able to do it in a span of 7 days, just as He was able to instantly part the red sea or shut the mouths the lions with Daniel. As far as Revelation goes – you just have to look at the language, such as (like as – metaphors and such) that gives a clue to as what you can take literally or not.
To tie this in with the topic of this post- I find it very dangerous to start trying to read into Scripture just like you said Armstrong did. He and many others, like Swanson will try to take away or put in Scripture what is not intended. I would rather trust that the Holy Spirit will guide me instead of me reading into Scripture- so that is what I mean by taking it at face value. If I don’t know something then I will wait, search, and ask the Holy Spirit to give guidance in the truth.
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I fixed the typo. I love it when people e-mail me my typos. I miss them all the time.
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@trust4himonly, faith is always “based” on something. It isn’t blind faith. Our faith is based on the promises of God. We believe God’s promise of eternal life. Myself, I think it is important to delve into biblical things that are not faith issues, such as this topic. It is not a faith issue. It is an “how do you understand it” issue. Salvation is not in jeopardy whether you believe it your way, or mine. But, in verse 2 of Genesis 1, that verse has a lot to say in such few words. There is a study pertaining to this topic with that verse alone. Common sense is not always the case in scripture. Spiritual things are discerned. Besides, I never said 1000 years, either. But I won’t say 24 hours either. I think it was much more than 1,000 years from the time earth was created to the time man was FORMED (the dirt into a body), and the key is in verse 2 of Genesis 1. What some call the Holy Spirit guiding them is not always the case. The Holy Spirit teaches spiritual things, not common sense things. Just sayin.
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Following Recovering Pharisee:
A few years ago on Book TV there was a talk given by an author who studied the social mores of Americans at the time of the Civil War. Using marriage and baptismal records kept by churches, the author deduced that about a third of the couples getting married at that time were already pregnant. He also read excerpts from letters that were quite racy without being explicit.
I’m old enough to have friends who “had to get married” in the days before the use of the pill was widespread. Not all were teenagers.
Promiscuity has always happened. Most of the earliest Christians lived in a way that was very different from their surrounding culture, and that’s what got them noticed, and scorned. They did this without going around trying to force the people in the cultures in which they lived to abide by the Christian sexual ethic. We could learn something from them, but unfortunately this is one of the many ways that today’s Christians are deaf to history.
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Chapmaned- I think you have me wrong here and probably because of the limitations of writing out what you would like to speak makes it difficult to put everything down in limited space. Plus, this post is about Swanson, so I would not want to take away from the topic..
I am saying basically that I will not take anyone’s word for anything, I will put my trust in what the Holy Spirit gives at the time that I need through the reading and studying His Word. I will also look at others writings and glean truth that is paralleled to what I see in Scripture, but I will not trust totally in men because they are fallible. i found this to be true in my life because I am fallible and have learned through my years that some of the things that I thought, were not quite so true, but that was because I listened to men instead of relying on the Holy Spirit and Scripture. I also use common sense and discernment because God gives it to us to use. I do not like to stray so far away from Scripture and delve into others territories- I have found that usually this is where many strange beliefs have formed. Scripture is enough for me; there is not exhaustive truth; willing to just flesh it out between me and the Savior; and I will always be learning. But thanks for the enlightening talk. 🙂
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Chapmaned-
I did not even say that it was wrong to search through these things. The thing is I don’t look at it as “blind faith” – to me it is trusting faith. Just like Abraham, David, Daniel,Joseph, Esther, the disciples, Paul- none knew where they would be next except but to trust in Gods provision: in physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs. If you look at Daniel, he did not become wise until he became firm in who he was going to serve. Solomon, however, wanted the wisdom and ended up with such knowledge that it led him astray. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am very content with His Scripture and really it has not hurt me whatsoever just to stay there- I believe in His power to guide me in truth and I am growing or I would not be here fighting for those to believe differently then me.
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The birth control pill DOES carry objective health risks for the woman who takes it. I quit taking the pill after a year because I didn’t like what those hormones were doing to me (especially my moods). It’s sad that in these diatribes against the pill, there is no concern expressed for the mother’s health. When Kevin says that it’s very dangerous for all those imaginary babies, my first question was, But what about the very REAL risks for the very REAL mother?
Oh wait. The mother’s health is never a concern in these discussions. It’s sad that there is SUCH great concern about a theoretical risk and SO LITTLE concern about the woman.
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Recovering Pharisee: This part of your comment reminded me of something: So people without a Christian worldview are supposed to live by our standard, but if they don’t, they should put themselves at risk to all kinds of diseases, and when they do get pregnant, they will magically want to keep the baby in all circumstances, thereby leading to fewer abortions. HUH?
I was in Oregon last weekend and a hot news item was regarding a baker in Gresham, Oregon who refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple because they are against homosexuality.
I understand the idea of being morally against homosexuality. And there was probably a time in my life that I may have thought it was okay to respond like that when I was drinking the Kool-Aid- that as Americans we have a right to decide whom we want to serve and all of that yada yada. But I’m reminded that we are to look to Jesus as our example. How did he treat the woman at the well? He did not negate the sin, but he loved her with his words. His words invited productive relationship. Did she feel shamed by him or did his words challenge her positively? Do you think the baker will ever have a relationship with this lesbian couple after the way in which they were treated? No way. The “Christian” baker put up a wall with his response and shamed them. And now the media got hold of it and showed the world how ridiculous some Christians can treat whole segments of society. Christ did not behave in such a manner.
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Jubilate: Welcome! You raise an important point when saying this: Oh wait. The mother’s health is never a concern in these discussions. It’s sad that there is SUCH great concern about a theoretical risk and SO LITTLE concern about the woman.
You see, WOMEN are not part of his/their agenda. The agenda for folks like Kevin is both pro-life and full-quiver – to overtake the world with Christians. In the mindset of these Patriarchs, mothers are secondary to unfertilized embryos. He legitimately could have said that hormonal birth control pills can be a risk to women with blood clotting issues. That is based on fact and scientific evidence. But noooooo – these folks minimize the valid risks of hormonal birth control and focus on imaginary dead baby graveyards. On the flip side, there are women who could die if they get pregnant again or their health can be seriously compromised. I know of a woman who had placenta abruption and the baby is disabled and mom nearly died. Full quiver folks would tell her to keep popping out babies. God is in control.
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Perhaps the baker took the position that baking the cake would be condoning what they were doing. I don’t have enough information to properly judge this story, but could it have been that he kept true to his heart and didn’t cave to popularity? Now I don’t know how he reacted, but I don’t see anything wrong with a gentle refusal and a suggestion of another bakery, same as if he had been asked to make a sexually suggestive cake. However if he ranted at them, that wouldn’t have been good. And I have to wonder who put this in the news.
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It’s very likely, Shannon, that he thought he would be condoning homosexuality by serving them. In one article it said that he believed homosexuality was an abomination. Ok, so maybe it is. What about other sins? Does he treat all sins the same? Does it matter if they are Christian or not? Does he treat the Christian adulterer the same as the non-believing homosexual? How does he treat a Christian who has sex before marriage? So, because this couple disclosed their sexual orientation to the business owner, the business owner then gets to become judge? But because the Believer did not disclose their sin, they get to do business there? I don’t know – this all seems messed up to me.
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Oh wait. The mother’s health is never a concern in these discussions. It’s sad that there is SUCH great concern about a theoretical risk and SO LITTLE concern about the woman.
Because to the Extreme Quiverfulls, a woman is nothing but a womb — a weapon to Outbreed the Heathen. And if one dies from overbreeding, well that’s God’s Will; replace the womb and start breeding again.
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HUG, I hate to admit it, but knowing the Reconstructionist agenda in those very extreme circles and having witnessed the pressure to “trust God” regardless of health conditions of mother, I must concur. SMH
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HUG, they call those deceased, overbred mommas martyrs. Women are encouraged to look at the risks of against-medical-advice pregnancies as possible martyrdom to the cause. Ugh.
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So right there with you, Julie Anne! That story of the Gresham baker was all over my facebook feed… yes, it does seem a similar thing as what we’re talking about here. I have several friends who are gay who live in the portland metro area, and I kept wincing thinking about their reaction to Christians’ posts about how they feel so strongly that the baker had every right to do that. Will you people please be quiet and stop speaking for rest of us?
Maybe the baker has a legal right to refuse to bake the cake. But it sure doesn’t communicate the love of Jesus. My immediate thought was, does he spiritually analyze every heterosexual couple who buys a cake and make sure they are living every aspect of their lives according to God’s will? I’m sure not. That’s the thing that gets me so frustrated- this logic communicates that simply being heterosexual makes one less of a sinner, and that’s just bull$@&t according to Scripture.
There are so many freaking logs in our own eyes as Christians.
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Never fear, RP – on Word Press, I can fix typos. Fixed it! I could not do that on Blogger.
As far as the rest of your comment – you and I are on the same page completely. I’m over being so judgmental. There is a time and a place for sharing. Again – look at how Jesus talked to the woman at the well. He talked to this woman. He didn’t have to. He engaged her. It’s about relationship, not about throwing stones.
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That’s a nice feature! thanks!
For sure~ that exact story came to my mind as well as I read the story of the Pharisee/Baker. I kept imagining my friends going into that store, asking for a cake for their ceremony, and thinking of how Jesus treated the woman at the well.
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RP – I’ve been back and forth on this baker story.
The Oregon Equality Act “forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity or expression in several areas including…..Public accommodations, meaning places open to the public such as businesses that sell goods or services, recreational facilities and providers of medical services.”
Click to access fs_oregon-equality-act.pdf
Did these people discriminate against them from coming into their business? No. Do they have the right to deny service to this couple? That I’m not sure about. Honestly, I haven’t had the time to look up if providing a service is what is meant by the Oregon Equality Act. I guess we’ll hear from the State about it. Should we allow Christians to follow their convictions if it goes against the law? (Same could be said about any religious group.)
As Christians, should they have provided the service knowing that they were providing a wedding cake to a same sex couple? I would answer yes. I think that would have been a loving thing to do. And, an honorable thing to do considering that their website states that they provide cakes for “ALL” occasions. However, I know that not all Christians feel the same way about this. Should all Christians be expected to think the same way about same sex couples? I think they should all be expected to be loving, but there will certainly be differing views – just look at how the church has split over all these years. I know my Southern Baptist aunt won’t think as kindly to a same sex couple as I would. I just expect that. I’m not saying that makes her view right, though.
So, what has now come to people’s attention is screen shot of a deleted Facebook page which shows a last horrible post.
http://www.examiner.com/article/sweet-cakes-by-melissa-posts-racist-rant-on-facebook
My mind goes to, is this real? Did someone fake this to make this couple look even worse.
And, there’s their Yelp page:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/sweet-cakes-by-melissa-gresham
This has drawn people from all over leaving comments about how awful they are. I must admit that I feel a bit bad for them over this. I don’t know how their business can survive, except for a few who will support them. Especially here in the Portland metro area.
Which then leads me to wonder…..these folks could easily sue the couple who took their complaint to the State for loss of work, slander and emotional distress.
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Kathi – When I read your last line, I thought of a certain pastor who shall not be named – lol. There are a lot of parallels. BTW – thanks for providing all of that information. This will be an interesting situation to watch. And I can easily see it going to court.
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Generally, those filing even a doubtful complaint with a state agency are protected from suit unless there was a provable malicious intent (e.g., filed by a competitor) rather than seeking justice.
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I think the Lord can give us ways to know how to deal with touchy situations with wisdom and love, not knee-jerk reactions. Yes, I do believe the baker can bake for whoever- we have that right; but at his own peril, especially in Portland. This is where the difference between the baker and the Chick-fil-let is important: Chick-fi-let stated what they believed (and not on national tv) BUT they did not stop feeding anyone and they have hired homosexuals; the baker is refusing to serve.
We had a motel and have cabins and we never discriminated on who was coming to stay, unless we knew there was reason to do so- like wild parties or destroying the room. This is a business, not some situation like a pastor officiating a wedding. That I could understand where a pastor would say no because of his beliefs. And I am saying these things as one who is very conservative and believe that homosexuality is wrong and destructive to the institution of the family and society, but so are a lot of things. Also feel that adultery and divorce are the same as homosexuality- I see no difference. So now is the baker not going to do wedding cakes to those who were a couple who had affairs on their spouses? What if this baker was doing a wedding cake for a mafia kingpin without knowing it? Businesses are not religious, they are neutral. They are there for making money.
Did Jesus pick out those in the crowd that were “unworthy” when He fed the 5,000? I wonder did Peter and the other disciples discriminate when they sold their fish? I just think we, as Christians, need to calm down and take a chill pill. Pray and ask the Lord for wisdom and just love people. This baker COULD have sat down with the couple and given the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Thank you, An Attorney, that was very helpful information. I was wondering about that. .
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Wartburg Watch has just picked up on Swanson. Including his qualifications from his website, which gives me the impression of Christianese Buzzword Bingo and Dominionist Taliban Madrassa. Adjectives like “Godly” and “Biblical”, legacies lasting for generations,,, The “Foolishness of Human Thought” line is straight out of al-Ghazali’s playbook and the “Columbine shooters…educated in public schools” is an obvious fear-by-association against “gummint” schools.
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HUG: I wish this blog had a “like” button.
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Here’s more spew from Swanson:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/06/kevin-swanson-gays_n_2625101.html
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Hi Julie Anne,
I’m new to this site and stumbled across it because I was googling Kevin Swanson. It is discouraging to hear that he said those comments. It’s more discouraging that he will not respond to your queries about his sources. Has he not even addressed the issue on his website or Facebook site?
Just in regards to a comment you made about a baker refusing to make a cake for a lesbian couple. I agree with the baker’s position. Homosexual relationships are an abomination to God. Certainly, his conduct toward the couple should be loving, but we are not instructed to become involved in sin just in order to “show love”.
One can still show love to a person while removing him or herself from the sin of the other person. I show love to my mum, but if she asks me to drive her to the bottle shop because she’s too drunk to drive, I’m certainly not going to fuel her alcoholism by participating in her sin in any way, shape, or form. I lovingly say no, but I’m still refusing her request. Why is it unloving to refuse to participate in sin?
The baker is not denying the couple just any old cake. It would be a problem if he was not serving them anything because they are homosexual. However, the issue is “not” about whether he’s refusing them “service”. The issue is that the couple were asking for a “wedding cake”! They were asking him to spend his time preparing a cake which would be used to celebrate their scripturally prohibited union.
While it’s not the baker’s responsibility to spiritually analyse every customer, it’s pretty clear in Scripture that heterosexual marriages are God’s design, not homosexual ones. From this basic position alone, the baker is able to discern that making a wedding cake for a heterosexual couple is not against God’s design. Heterosexual marriages are not prohibited, so there is no issue in making cakes in those cases, regardless of the issues of the couple. The baker cannot be accountable for the unknown problems or sins of the heterosexual couple. He can only be accountable for the things he knows.
Kind regards,
Lyn
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Lyn: I understand your position on the baker. I really do. How would you respond to Rom 13:1 with regard to this situation? In some areas it is illegal to withhold service to someone.
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Kevin Swanson is in the news again. This time about Star Trek. SIGH. He gives a really bad impression of Christianity to the world.
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I know, Shannon. It’s sad when we feel the need to cringe when certain popular Christians speak.
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