Mark Driscoll Stepping Down for 6 Weeks While Charges Investigated

Warren Throckmorton broke the story this morning that Mars Hill pastor, Mark Driscoll is stepping down for 6 weeks.

In a pre-recorded video announcement, Mark Driscoll told his congregation this morning that he will take at least six weeks off as lead pastor of Mars Hill Church while charges against him are investigated. Driscoll preached at Bellevue at 8:30 am to a packed house. According to sources in church this morning, Driscoll said he is meeting with mature Christian men unrelated to the church. The message is being played at each campus this morning.

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Sarah Pulliam Bailey of Religion News Service also picked up the story:

Seattle megachurch founder Mark Driscoll will step down for at least six weeks while the Mars Hill board of elders review formal charges lodged against him from previous pastors. (Religion News Service)

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Zach Hoag also posted a spoof article:

Returning from vacation noticeably more tan than usual, Mark began his video announcement to the church with these words: “Howdy, Mars Hill. So yeah, this month has been totally ridic. I’m out, bro. DONE. Forget angry young prophet and older spiritual father – I’m going to Southern California to chill, and you, Acts 29, and the rest of the Internet can suck it.”

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Morgan Lee of Christianity Today picked up the story as well, but also included discussed other pastors who have stepped aside from their pastorate to take care of personal failings, John Piper and C.J. Mahaney.  Lee’s article is here: Mark Driscoll Steps Down While Mars Hill Investigates Charges

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, a neighbor of Driscoll blogs:

All I want to say, before giving the following report is that I pray for Mark Driscoll and all who have been hurt by him directly or indirectly. As a newish resident church planter in Ballard (the site of the first permanent “main campus” as I understand it) I simply want to love my neighbors affected by all of this.

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Huffington Post now has taken Sarah Pulliam Bailey’s article and run with it: Megapastor Mark Driscoll Charged With Abusive Conduct By 21 Former Mars Hill Pastors

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David Hayward “Naked Pastor” posts cartoon and post:

Many people are calling for forgiveness for Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church so that he and the church can get back to preaching the gospel as effectively as it had and get back on the road to success, just like it was before things started unraveling.

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Andrew Jones of Tall Skinny Kiwi’s shared his thoughts, Will Mark Driscoll Drive to Church Today in a White Bronco?

A strange thing happened on the way to 50,000. The megachurch ceased its upwards numerical surge and haemorrhaged.

If the implosion of Mars Hill Church was just about numbers, it would make an interesting case study for church growth consultants. If it was just about ecclesiology and church government, Mars Hill would be the penultimate example of what happens when a church swaps the accountability of church elders and mutual submission to its members for a dodgy business model with untouchable leaders, shady practices and phantom accounting.

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Brad Sargent, blogger who has studied spiritual abuse, weighs in on the announcement by Mark Driscoll to step down in his article, Responsibility for Spiritual Abuse – Part 1 – Questions of Culpability, Complicity, and Recovery:

This post is about questions I’ve had that have emerge from the case study in allegations of spiritual abuse that Mars Hill Church in Seattle, and its co-founding pastor Mark Driscoll, have provided the U.S. Church. This is highly complex and grievous situation, and involves years of problematic leadership and labyrinthine organizational issues. I’ve been watching the situation especially since 2008 when I started research writing on spiritual abuse issues in depth.

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Jonathan Merritt, senior news columnist for Religion News Service, shares his thoughts:  

As I consider this development in light of the shifting tide of public opinion toward Driscoll and the barrage of scandals that he has endured this year alone, I arrive at only one conclusion: The hyper-masculine minister, Mark Driscoll, has been effectively neutered.   He will likely never write another book, and if he does, far fewer will read its words. He will likely never again jet set around the country speaking to tens of thousands week after week. And even if he returns to the pastorate–which I imagine is likely–he’ll ascend the stage a shadow of his former self. The glory days of Mars Hill and its celebrity founder are irrevocably behind them both. 

Mars Hill releases entire Mark Driscoll Statement.  Here are a few excerpts and my comments:

It is because of my deep love for the local church in general, and Mars Hill Church in particular, that it grieves me to see anything come against it or threaten to harm it. It also grieves me greatly when something I say or do results in controversy and publicity none of you signed up for when you decided to be a part of this church family.

When someone is grieved, they stop, look at the problem, and take appropriate action. People have been calling him account for years and years.  If he’s been “grieving,” he has not shown the appropriate response. These are mere “words” not true sentiments.

Over the years, as I have grown and as the Lord has been molding and pruning me, I have, on many occasions, shared with you some of the lessons I’ve been learning. Some of these have been painful, and some I’ve been slow to learn. I’ve acknowledged and confessed many of my sins, shortcomings and missteps, and God has been more than faithful with His forgiveness. Most of our Mars Hill family has been forgiving as well, and for that I’m grateful and blessed. By God’s grace, I want to always be humble and teachable.

No real commentary here about the victims, their thoughts, feelings. It’s all about MD and the process he’s had to go through. A truly repentant person does not focus on SELF, but on the ones he has hurt.

I want to thank those who have come directly to an Elder, lead pastor or me to tell us of an offense they are carrying. This allows us to deal with it head-on between the two affected parties, rather than in a court of public opinion and public media. I believe God is honored by this approach—the approach He prescribed for us in Matthew 18 and other Scriptures.

This is a back-handed way of saying that anyone who has spoken publicly about his leadership has done it wrong. He’s saying:  “don’t talk, but if you do talk, then come to your leaders.” Let’s not forget the scores and scores of people who attempted to bring grievances to elders/pastors and to Mark Driscoll privately, but were fired/removed put in church discipline and shunned. 

He then complains about people bringing up his pseudonym from years ago, that he took care of it a few years ago.  Perhaps he did not do a good enough job of taking care of it or it wouldn’t have come up again.  Or perhaps it came up again because the same pattern of behavior exists today.

Storm clouds seem to be whirling around me more than ever in recent months and I have given much thought and sought much counsel as to why that is and what to do about it. The current climate is not healthy for me or for this church. (In fact, it would not be healthy for any church.)

It is indeed healthy for both Driscoll and the church. Those who have been inside and who have known Driscoll outside his church are seeing the problems.  It is healthy to deal with this.  It is unhealthy to ignore it.  That’s what has been going on for years.  

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Warren Throckmorton posted the audio of the announcement:

Article by Becky Garrison who uncovers background on the new PR guy Driscoll said will be helping him:
Mark DeMoss to Manage Mars Hill’s Mess

This kind of advice doesn’t come cheap. So, how much will the bill be for his services, and who is footing this bill? Also, for those thinking Mark D. (as in Driscoll not DeMoss) will resign, churches bring in these kind of players to clean the joint up just enough so no one sees the real dirt. So while Driscoll wil be counseled to clean up his act, until the by-laws change to provide for actual accountability and the church opens up ALL of their books to bring about financial transparency, it’s still SNAFU at Mars Hill.

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From Rob Smith:  

Are Mars Hill Church elders elders in name only?

At the end of the day, Mark Driscoll may apologize and say he is sorry, for this and that, but he will not repent of bullying the 2007 bylaws into place.These bylaws removed his accountability to the elders of the church. His bullying included harming, shaming, shunning and slandering Paul Petry. Yet he will not repent of that act. By repenting he would have to admit that the entire bullying episode occurred so that he could change the bylaws via coercion and duress without due process.

Responses on Twitter (I’m posting new tweets on top and these are expressions that I’m seeing on Twitter – some vulgar language and heated sentiments from both sides:

https://twitter.com/BrandonAmbro/status/503603740956712960

219 comments on “Mark Driscoll Stepping Down for 6 Weeks While Charges Investigated

  1. About anyone in this thread considering leaving the Christian faith due to how some Christians have taught offensive or painful things about God, gender, marriage, etc.

    As I said above, I have my own reasons for possibly leaving the faith (I’m undecided about staying or leaving).

    I will say that while I too am troubled by how sexism is running amok in Christianity under the heading of “gender complementarianism,” I do recognize that there are Christians who fight that sexism within the faith, and they challenge the biases and twisted biblical interpretations used to keep women down.

    Some of these Christians who fight sexism go by the label “egalitarian” (some don’t go by any label, but they do not agree with complementarianism, or teachings such as women should stay in abusive marriages, or that sexual abuse victims are at any fault at all for the abuse).

    They have sites such as
    Christians For Biblical Equality
    And that’s just one site, There are other blogs, forums, and sites by Christian gender egalitarians.

    Like

  2. @ Brenda.
    Oh yes, I’m not under any illusions. I know that some Non Christian men can be cheaters or abusive as well. My sister has dated/married Non Christian men, and some of them were losers or jerks.

    But. I see a strong push by a lot of Christians to shout at single ladies who want marriage, and are tired of waiting and are now open to marrying an atheist, to “wait for God’s timing” for a “Christian man.”

    For pete’s sake, I am over 40 years of age. I’m not 25 anymore. How much longer do I have to wait for a C. man?

    Any time I walk into a church, there are either zero single Christian men over 30, or the two that are there, are 876 pounds in weight, and/or mentally defective or weird (I.O.W., they are not dating or marriage material.)

    My position on this now is that a C. woman should consider dating/ marrying C or Non C men, but you have to judge a man’s actions, not their profession of faith in Jesus or lack thereof.

    I’ve seen too, too many self professing C men, who even go to church weekly, who turn out to be sex fiends, abusers, etc, to bother with the “be equally yoked” idea any further.

    Some Non C men can be abusive or selfish too, which is why I think women have to judge the guy’s life, his personality, his actions, how he treats people, not by if he goes to church or not or believes in Jesus.

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  3. “One of today’s most-repeated clichés is that there are lots of people who find God believable, but the church unbearable, Jesus appealing, but the church appalling.” –Wright, N. T. (2011-10-25). Simply Jesus: A New Vision of Who He Was, What He Did, and Why He Matters (p. 220). HarperOne. Kindle Edition.

    Ecclesiology is one area in which I disagree with Wright.

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  4. Yes, Daisy. When I compare my own talk to my walk, it is all very sobering. One dare not become complacent, which is exactly the place to which one is lead when they buy into the lie that, if they will only say the sinners prayer, they will go to heaven when they die. To falsely think that one has by cheap grace purchased an irrevocable fire insurance policy is to turn away from our infinitely loving Lord, who would give us His life in exchange for our own. Yet, the exchange must actually be made. Let us not allow the Mark Driscolls of the world to make themselves out to be the picture and example of what it is to be a Christian. That might well be to allow them to steal our very souls.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. “Ecclesiology is one area in which I disagree with Wright.”

    I haven’t paid much attention, but it does seem that to accept much of what Wright says about church, one must presuppose a different church than the sort of church of which Wright is a (former?) bishop.

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  6. @ Gary W,

    if they will only say the sinners prayer, they will go to heaven when they die.

    It depends if the person sincerely meant the sinner’s prayer.

    I said it when I was a kid and meant it.

    I also lived the faith out, though. I did not just say, “Oh yes, I believe in Jesus,” said the prayer, ~ then slept around, smoked, cussed, and did whatever I pleased. I tried to live by the teachings of Christ, and I did, more often than not.

    My issue is not with the sinner’s prayer. The Bible says you are to communicate to God you know you are a sinner and need his Son, and that to me, is what the sinner’s prayer conveys.

    I don’t think the problem is with the prayer itself but the heart or will of the one praying it. Maybe some of the people who pray it do not understand the content of it, what they are praying, or the severity.

    As I said in a big post higher up this page, one reason of many I am having hard time holding on and am becoming agnostic is I see a lot of people profess the name of Christ but they do not even attempt to live out the most basic facets of the faith.

    My mother was a true blue Christian. She did not just SAY she was a Christian, her life reflected that she was one, that she meant what she said. Talk is cheap.

    I was a true blue Christian until two years ago, when after Mom died several years before, I looked around after he death and saw how most other “Christians” live, and they how ever they please. Jesus does not make a difference in the lives of the people who claim to believe in him, so what is the point.

    The cherry on top for me is not only are a lot of self professing Christians hypocrites who don’t even try to live by the Bible’s teachings, but, they sit around defending and excusing the frauds, liars, and perverts who claim Christ’s name.

    Look at big name preachers such as Driscoll, Perry Noble, John Piper, and Steve Furtick, who say and do all manner of abusive, shady, insensitive, or greedy things, and instead of being horrified by their behavior and calling these men to accountability, or demanding they step down from the pulpit, their little fans run around the internet defending these charlatans to the hilt like crazy people and screaming at anyone who says, “what these men are doing is terrible.”

    Their anger should be directed towards the misbehaving preacher, not those who expose their wrong doing.

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  7. christianpundit,
    Your mama had it right. and so do you. Their anger should be directed towards the misbehaving preacher, not those who expose their wrong doing. What my Christian mama always said was, If someone jumps off a bridge are you going to follow ‘em, Obviously, from the south.

    My question is, why do you consider being agnositc? if you know God is with you and have accepted Him. Jesus does make a difference in the lives of those who believe in Him and seek relationship with Him. Those who are not seeking relationship will fall away. Prayer, reading the Word and dwelling on what is good and righteous is what makes Christ real in your life. What everyone else is doing has nothing at all to do with you. Each person has there own opportunity for Christ to be real in their life. It is up to each one to use that opportunity well. Never give up no matter how fierce the storm.

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  8. christianpundit,

    You say “I was a true blue Christian until two years ago, when after Mom died several years before, I looked around after he death and saw how most other “Christians” live, and they how ever they please.”

    I propose that it is dangerous to judge our Lord by those whose lives put the lie to their claim to be His. If we must judge, as in discern, it is better to judge/discern only those whose lives we are observing. Discern who Driscoll truly is, but do not judge the Lord to whom he (possibly falsely) claims to belong.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. missdaisyflower,

    When you identify people that profess to be Christians but practices hateful, arrogant, judgmental and self serving behavior, they are living a miserable existence and may not even be Christians and that may include preachers who consider themselves well versed..

    I really become suspect if the preacher is even a Christian if the church he leads is so consumed in a state of repetitive unworthiness that people lack noticeable joy every time they leave church.

    I have reached a point in my own life where if I identify unforgiveness and hatefulness in a church or where there is a constant degrading of people (man or woman) in a church, I have to walk away, because their focus is on “self” and not in a loving Christ.

    If I what to pursue hatefulness I can get all I want in a Godless secular world.

    Strangely I have noticed that most of the judgmental and hateful Christians do not like Joel Osteen or even Adrian Rodgers type preaching, who in my view are more loving and don’t degrade people or embrace a chauvinistic view in life.
    .

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  10. Thank you Brenda for your comments.

    @ Gary.
    I just do not see the Christian faith as being true anymore, if so many who claim it are not demonstrating changed lives.

    It makes me wonder now if my mother (who was Christian) was living a good life due to her own morality, will power, personality, and such, not that she was indwelt by God or given a changed heart by God.

    The Bible says that people who claim Christ but who yet continually do wrong (or neglect to do right) cast dispute on the Lord’s name, so I don’t know about this part of your post:

    that it is dangerous to judge our Lord by those whose lives put the lie to their claim to be His. If we must judge, as in discern, it is better to judge/discern only those whose lives we are observing. Discern who Driscoll truly is, but do not judge the Lord to whom he (possibly falsely) claims to belong.

    The Bible (in New Testament) recognizes that God himself will be judged by the actions of those who claim to follow him. This is one reason why Paul and other NT writers constantly tell Christians to watch how they live.

    Romans 2:24:
    For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.

    Then there are these sorts of verses from the Old Testament that go by the same principle:

    2 Samuel 12:14
    “However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.”

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  11. Mark,
    Strangely I have noticed that most of the judgmental and hateful Christians do not like Joel Osteen or even Adrian Rodgers type preaching, who in my view are more loving and don’t degrade people or embrace a chauvinistic view in life.

    Same here. A lot of Christians deplore Osteen. I think Osteen may be quasi “Word of Faith”, and I’m not Word of Faith supporter, but I do not think it’s wrong that most of his sermons are uplifting.

    Some Christians are very critical of Osteen for not making every single sermon about Hell, salvation, that he does not “beat up” on his audience enough for being sinners, or that he does not name drop Jesus every two minutes, and that he does not quote more than three Bible verses per sermon.

    I do agree that a lot of sermons today are too “light” and shallow, and that can be a problem. So to a degree I agree with the Osteen critics on that, I suppose.

    On the other hand, I think there are times when an uplifting sermon is needed. Osteen may have what the Bible says is the “gift of encouragement,” so it would follow his sermons are going to sound more like pep talks than ordinary sermons.

    Like you, I have noticed that some of the most angry, judgmental, or theologically arrogant (they think their theology is 100% correct at all times, or their preferred method of preaching is the only right way) Christians cannot stand pastors like Osteen and take every opportunity to shred him on their blogs, forums, and pod casts.

    I’m not completely in support of Osteen’s message or delivery method, I can see where there are some problems here or there with him or his preaching, but the Christians on the internet who seem totally against him trouble me too.

    Like

  12. christianpundit,

    Joel Osteen admittedly proclaimed that he felt his gift was an “encourager”. So maybe verbally “beating up people isn’t his strength. He won’t even verbally beat up on his critics.

    He is a topical preacher, He may not beat up his congregation but the subtle ways in which he combines scripture in his messages does challenge us of living a life of joy, in a hateful world we live.

    If you lack noticeable joy and love after getting an “Exegetical” chewing out after every service, it will make it more difficult to reach others for Christ instead of embracing joy and love in a hateful world.

    I have suggested “why would an Un-Believing world want what Christians have in Christ if by appearance.Christians are more miserable than non-Christians?”

    I’m not suggesting Church should be a “Pep Rally”: but it shouldn’t be so “Abusive” that believers are so “mentally drained” full of their unworthiness they become ineffective in reaching out.

    Like

  13. I haven’t paid much attention, but it does seem that to accept much of what Wright says about church, one must presuppose a different church than the sort of church of which Wright is a (former?) bishop.”

    Oh, I don’t know. Ever heard much about Rowan Williams former Bishop of Canterbury? The more I read up on Anglicans, the more of a mishmash they are of just about everything. Wright contends the liberals say he is a right winger. The right wing accuses him of being a liberal. I can relate. But they are still funded by the government!

    I still disagree with Anglican ecclesiology. :o)

    Like

  14. That Osteen smile makes bank off Jesus big time. I would not want to go up against Victoria, though. :o) They promoted some financial hucksters that took advantage of some folks and then acted like they had no responsibility for it.

    I read about it the same week I read about Dave Ramsey’s former staffers who are getting the word out but are stil scared of him. It is bad out there folks. it is about fame, greed, money, brand, etc. Where is Jesus in any of it?

    Like

  15. On TWW Marsha left a comment stating that “according to his former secretary whom he fired for ‘heresy’ for suggesting he needed accountability from elders, Driscoll was physically and verbally abused by his father”.

    Although all children who are abused do not grow up to be abusers, it’s evident that Mark Driscoll is an abuser. He was an abuser when The Leadership Network launched his career, and he has not changed since the day he stepped behind a pulpit. According to secular sources, abusers rarely change. Again, I refer you to “A Cry For Justice” and Jeff Crippen.

    If only women were treated better and as equals? Exactly how is that going to happen when people only wring their hands over the symptoms and won’t go near the ideology ( a systematic body of concepts) that drives the behavior.

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  16. Lydia,

    I have no answer to the corruption that plagues our churches.except I know God will not allow us to get away with it.

    King David and King Solomon didn’t escape God’s judgement and I believe they loved God. My impression is Joel Osteen loves God.

    Joel Osteen doesn’t verbally abuse his Congregation which I believe is a strength.

    If he (and Victoria fall) in the same manner as King David (and they may), I’m sure their critics will have a “gotcha” moment.

    Like

  17. Guest & Oasis,

    Just want to say I read what you both wrote. I wept & prayed, (been weeping a lot of late) and wondered if I should say something. The thing is, I don’t know what to say, besides I am so sorry, and with all my heart, I wish you hadn’t been sexually abused. ab-used. USED to satisfy a man’s lust… the cry of my child’s heart inside of me is still unpacking shit that happened 50 some years ago.
    Why did my innocence get soiled within?
    Why did I absorb my abusers sin?
    He damaged my ability to know what it is to trust,
    by using me to satisfy his perverted lust.
    Sending you both warm thoughts of grace & mercy today.

    Like

  18. Guest,
    I wanted to respond to your post right away, but the words were not coming. I was brought up by a sexually abusive and in many other ways evil step-father. He in no way claimed to be a Christian so the church became my refuge at around age 10. It was the only place I felt safe. From what you have said, I understand why the opposite would have happened to you. I had a very difficult time believing that God/Jesus loved me or why would these things be happening to me. I had to have done something that I was being punished for. I didn’t trust any men, but wanted badly to be loved by the Prince Charming that didn’t come.

    I wish so much I could take all of this pain from you. I hear similar stories all too often from women who were so abused by Christian and non-Christian men as children that they can find no joy in a good man if one were to come along and are either afraid of God because He is a male figure or hold a grudge against Him.

    The men you encountered were very vile and at a time when you should have been able to go to family to rescue you, you were thrown under the bus. I don’t believe that the behavior these men portrayed has anything to do with being a Christian, it is just a word they call themselves as they twist scripture to suit themselves, even against a defenseless little girl. I was made to be afraid to the point that I couldn’t open my mouth if someone would have asked me if there were a problem, which no one did. I felt so much shame, believing that I had caused it all myself. I was an adult before I told anyone what had happened.

    Guest, if there is anything I can do for you, let Julie Anne know and she can make it possible for us to connect. (((((HUGS)))))

    Like

  19. The issue of the subjugation of women in the church and in the home continues to be a hot topic. Taking a serious look at what we find in history enlightens our understanding and helps us to see where we are at with this topic today. Knowing the historical record helps us to push back against flawed thinking among church leaders and empowers us to speak out for justice!

    I am delighted to announce that my website designer has posted a new article on my website. It is entitled: Women in the Church—American History, Slavery, and Feminism.

    This article looks into the historical record regarding the influence of ‘evangelical feminism’ especially in the 19th century. It looks at slavery and how women were treated in this era. There is much pertinent information available.

    Go to: http://www.ChurchExiters.com
    From the home page, scroll down to the very bottom to: Newest Articles.

    Like

  20. Pastor Jack Schaap loses bid for sentence reduction.

    12 years is a light sentence in my opinion. If I were judge, which I’m sure he would be very glad that I am not, he’d be in prison for the remainder of his days. (I actually have a different means of dealing with this type of individual in my mind, but I am sure that sentence would not make it through moderation here and may be considered cruel and unusual punishment.) His whole demeanor has “abuser” written all over it. He is blame shifting to a 16 year old girl. Each time he tries to get out of his sentence they could add 5 years and see what he thinks of that.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Gail, thank you for your wonderful wish and your warm thoughts, you are very kind! :) Not sure what to say, either. I want Guest to know that she’s not alone in her feelings and thoughts, but I probably shouldn’t have said anything at all, and I’ve asked Julie Anne to delete my above comment.

    But, want to tell you that I really love the little poem you wrote. It made me cry. Is it okay if I save it?

    [Mod note: modified previous comment p/user request]

    Like

  22. Mark Driscoll encourages anal sex: the sodomizing of wives by husbands.
    So would Mark Driscoll like his body to be the recipient of sodomy?
    After all, Ephesians 5:28 says “husbands should love their wives as their own bodies.”

    I bet the “professional ‘c’hristian men” skirt around that one in their conversations with Mark Driscoll.

    What a circus it all is! But there’s no amusement in it for the victims of Driscoll and his cronies cum ‘accountability figures’.

    And I bet there’s no amusement for Grace Driscoll and their children. They are most likely walking on eggshells in deep fog, trying to avoid hidden land mines and the buried fragments of cluster bombs from previous explosions. . .

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Barbara,

    I have to admit, I have never had the desire to explore Mark Driscoll’s views simply because he is viewed as a Neo-Calvinist,.a doctrine I can’t embrace.

    This is the first time I heard some of his views of spousal “intimate requirements”

    Did he really say these things? Where did he suggest it? Behind the Pulpit or in his book?

    Hard to imagine any Pastor would openly expose his (and hers) most intimate details that should stay private.

    I can’t imagine his wife thinking she is married to someone that respects her privacy.

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  24. Scott said: His sex laced sermons are the norm. Personally I bet you anything he is a 24/7 porn freak with tons of filth stored on his laptop right along side his “sermons” .

    Yeah, I think the same thing.
    Not to mention that he has a list of porn/sex-toy sites recommended on his website. Because, you know, people might not be able to find enough of that stuff w/o Marky to guide them……

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  25. Barb Orlowski,
    Thank you for bring this to our attention. I read the article, “Women in the Church”. It is a good reminder of where we came from and sadly where we still are in many cases. The difference is it is under the law of the husband and not the law of the land.

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  26. What will Mr. Driscoll say when he stands before Jesus one day to give his account?

    What may (or may not) surprise us today, is the number of pastors filling these so called offices whose eyes and hearts lust after sex continuously, whether it be their wife or another outside of marriage…..and one of the most terrifying aspects of this sin at large, there is NO REPENTANCE and at best, a FAKE REPENTANCE in the life of this church (official).

    Jesus, oh Precious Jesus, be there for the broken hearts of the victims left in the wake of these blood thirsty wolves. We petition You to help these precious souls to gather up the pieces strewn about, and through the Power of your Precious Word, we pray they will be made whole again through You. Please help these souls to forgive themselves as You have already freely forgiven. Give them new life, LORD, for You are our One and Only Mediator in this world, in Jesus Name I pray. Amen.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. :)
    ‘Bull dust’ is thought of as fairly crude language and potentially offensive. You could use it among friends who were not offended by a bit of mild swearing, especially if you were having a few drinks at the pub or a BBQ in the back yard. But you should not use if if there is anyone in the audience who might be offended by crude language. It’s *offensiveness rating* is pretty similar to ‘bull shit’ (for which it was originally a euphemism, I suppose).

    In Oz, BS is more commonly used than BD. BD has lost all the euphemistic value it may once have had. Sigh.

    Regarding the risks of using an idiom wrongly, I have personally stopped worrying too much about that. I have so many Yankees in cyberspace as my friends that if I put something wrong or they don’t understand I’m sure someone would gently call me out and tell me. :)

    And btw, in cyberspace it doesn’t matter what time it is. Only the day of the week matters, and only then if you are a blog administrator and you have to have (as I do) two days running in your head all the time: my day is one day ahead of yours. That matters when I’m scheduling posts and such like.

    And your use of “g’day” was spot on, Gary.
    Spot on, I have discovered, is an Aussie idiom — one my American cyber-friends have now adopted. YAY!

    And yes, the Permanence View is a house of cards made of BD held together by threat and bluff and blindfold.
    Blow the house down, let’s blow the house down! Yay, Hey, Blow the house down!

    Like

  28. Gail,

    Why did my innocence get soiled within?
    Why did I absorb my abusers sin?
    He damaged my ability to know what it is to trust,
    by using me to satisfy his perverted lust.
    Sending you both warm thoughts of grace & mercy today.

    All questions that I asked for a very long time. I don’t any longer. Recently, I think I found the answer. God has purpose for our lives even through the muck. For myself, I feel that what I went through prepared me to help others. My prayer is that at some point my knowledge will help prevent this from happening to another person and not needing to pick up the pieces afterwards. (((((HUGS)))))

    Like

  29. Mark, I have read from many sources and places people reporting that Mark Driscoll recommends wives to allow anal intercourse from their husbands. I believe it is in his series on Esther? Or his “Real Marriage” book? But maybe he has said it from platforms too. I am not able to give you further citations or details, but perhaps others on this thread are.

    I’ve read so many reports of him endorsing sodomy in marriage that I have never doubted he does so. The reports I have read have been from folk I know who I respect and trust for their accuracy in fact-giving. Frankly, I have never been moved to read Driscol’s marriage book or his Esther sermons myself. Aargh! I have too much other stuff to deal with already! All the abuser droppings (verbal faeces) we get on A Cry For Justice, plus the horrendous stories that victims tell us. . .

    Like

  30. Oasis,

    Yes, you can save it. I hope Guest had a chance to read what you said, because you reached out to her, from that place inside, that many have never had to travail through. That said, I respect your decision to have your comment deleted. Peace to you! xo

    Like

  31. “All questions that I asked for a very long time. I don’t any longer. Recently, I think I found the answer. God has purpose for our lives even through the muck. For myself, I feel that what I went through prepared me to help others. My prayer is that at some point my knowledge will help prevent this from happening to another person and not needing to pick up the pieces afterwards.” (((((HUGS)))))

    Brenda R

    That is wonderful. You obviously have a beautiful heart for people. I loved reading how you cared for the lady who has dementia. Life is so odd. I could have written what you did fifteen years ago. I hope to get back on track.
    Thanks Barb & Brenda for the ((((hugs))))

    Like

  32. Pingback: Translating Mark Driscoll | A Cry For Justice

  33. I’ve just did a quick google search for Mark Driscoll anal sex. First item that came up on the google listing was from the Mars Hill website and it was a Q and A about anal sex.
    I just looked again for it and it’s gone (404 error message! Wow! that was quick!)
    Here is what the google seach page looks like:

    About 9,560 results (0.32 seconds)
    Search Results
    Question #21: Can I perform anal sex on my wife? | Mars Hill …
    marshill.com/2008/11/…/question-21-can-i-perform-anal-sex-on-my-wif…
    Nov 30, 2008 – This set of posts comes from Pastor Mark Driscoll and his wife Grace. … Thus, anal sex is technically permissible, but for a host of reasons may …

    The second item in google’s list was Denny Burke’s review of the Driscoll’s book “Real Marriage”.
    http://www.dennyburk.com/my-review-of-mark-driscolls-real-marriage/
    Here is a quote from that review:

    “The bulk of the chapter [Chapter 10 of “Real Marriage”] gives an ethical assessment of a variety of sexual activities. The Driscolls invoke 1 Corinthians 6:12 as the basis for the evaluation, “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.” . . . Among the activities that the authors deem permissible within this taxonomy are masturbation, felatio/cunnilingus, sodomy (on both spouses), menstrual sex, role-playing, sex toys, birth control, cosmetic surgery, cybersex, and sexual medication. The Driscolls are careful to stipulate that these are activities spouses may participate in by mutual agreement, but not that they must participate in (p. 180). No spouse should be manipulated into doing anything that violates his or her conscience (p. 178). The only item in the list deemed impermissible in every circumstance is sexual assault.”

    So, assuming Denny Burke is accurately conveying what the Driscolls wrote, Mark Driscoll endorses both females and males being passive recipients of sodomy. Words fail me!

    And Mark Driscoll has demonstrated repeatedly that he will not respect anyone’s “No” if he don’t want to — so whatever “Real Marriage” says about the importance of non-coercion, it is likely to be just hot air in Mark Driscoll’s own case. Mark Driscoll has not respected the “No’s” of all the former leaders and congregants from Mars Hill who tried over the years to tell him to stop being such a bully and power-monger. . . .

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  34. No spouse should be manipulated into doing anything that violates his or her conscience

    It is scary that I have heard that statement made in sermon at my church. I don’t believe that my pastor is any way in the abuser category as MD, but it does bring up the thought. Two pastors saying the same sentence, but meaning it in entirely different ways. My pastor does speak out against most of the things on the list that Driscoll says are ok. So that makes me feel that he would not say it is ok in anyway to physically abuse another, which is what anal sex is. There are so many physical problems that can be caused by that act.

    Barb, I have no desire to read his marriage book. I have far better things to do with my time.

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  35. “Yes, you can save it.”

    Thanks, Gail! You seemed to speak from my own heart in your poem… So glad you shared it here.

    “Why did my innocence get soiled within?
    Why did I absorb my abusers sin?”

    These questions, I read in a very different way… They describe how I feel, and are things I try to understand about trauma and how our brains work. Asking whys of God is not something I ever do, because to me that implies he is responsible, in either causing or allowing the abuse, which I do not believe…

    Peace to you, also, as you unpack the stuff that happened 50 years ago!

    Guest, if you are reading here, we care about you. You or anyone else can e-mail me anytime. Julie Anne has my address.

    Like

  36. Oasis,

    I wrote that poem 15 years ago when I was entrenched in a church that taught God was sovereign. I had a spat with my pastor after he screeched from the pulpit that those who have been sexually abused, might try thanking God for their abuse. He stated, it could be the key to our healing. In closing, he spit across the pulpit, and said, but, some of you, will refuse to do this, so, in essence, you are spitting on the authority of the scriptures.

    It is another long story. However, I refused to thank God for being molested. I was open to how God might use me to sit in sorrow & solidarity with another who has been wounded. But no way in Hell was I going to say Thank You Jesus.

    I spent 20 some years trying to use that insane doctrine, backed up by the b-i-b-l-e
    to cure my wounds. It didn’t work. Now that my blinders are coming off and I am learning how abusive this Calvinist driven theology is I am struggling something fierce to recover.

    Like

  37. Gail, words escape me! :( I do remember now that you mentioned here some months ago, what he said to you. How disgusting and HORRIBLE.

    Why thank Jesus for sin/evil, which does not come from him, and which he is opposed to and commands against, over and over? And which he grieves over? Really? How much sense does that make? I believe God is very offended when people attribute sin/evil to him, in any way, and teach/promote this blasphemous picture of him to others.

    Character assassination, painting Jesus as the man behind the curtain, the psychopath god, who designs every second of child torture and calls it good. Follow the white rabbit and you end up in a religious Wonderland nightmare.

    Anyway, struggling to recover, from the abusive doctrine? We are in the same boat, if that is what you mean… Nothing in my whole life has ever hurt me as much as this doctrine, which was a sledgehammer to my mind and heart, because it attempted to shatter my view of God and turn the only one I can trust into the one who betrayed me the most. So, you have someone to scream and/or cry with, if you need her.

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  38. Gail, I think sovereignty was not explained correctly. God is sovereign, but that shouldn’t be a bad thing. He is the supreme ruler. No one else is above Him. It doesn’t mean that he preplans the bad things that happens to us. We all have free will and unfortunately wicked people use that free will against others. And no, I never said thank you for being molested either. I have thanked Him for getting me through it I look at it as though I am a little girl and he is the dad I always wanted. He doesn’t want bad things to happen to me or any of us, but He will be there to pick us up when we call on Him.

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  39. Hey Oasis,

    It is a religious nightmare! Yes, the abusive doctrine for sure is part of my struggle, maybe more, than I even realize, at this point. I have sunk into a funk, not to make light of what really is going on, but I am having a hard time with depression, which has been an on again and off occurrence in my 60 years of living. Have some big decisions to make in the following weeks. I need to rant a bit, if this is too much info,
    take it with a grain of salt, I am feeling more angry today about all that religious crap and want to vent. John MacArthur, Mr. “Grace to You” mentored my X Pastor, so that might give you an idea of what I learned in Church. UGH. Maybe I won’t vent on second thought…

    But I whole heartily agree with you on this:

    “Nothing in my whole life has ever hurt me as much as this doctrine, which was a sledgehammer to my mind and heart, because it attempted to shatter my view of God and turn the only one I can trust into the one who betrayed me the most.”

    I agree, along with shattering my view of God, it put me into a constant, hyper state of fear, always looking at my depravity, wondering when the next shoe would drop, when God would give me something to really cry about, as part of refining me into His image, and the freaking false guilt, trying so hard to measure up, jumping through so many hoops, it was toxic and exhausting. The feelings of being terrified of God, rather than knowing Him as a comforter, were the daily diet I was fed for fourteen years. I know I am rambling, I know I am not alone, so many have been crushed by these men of gawd. I wonder how smug they will be when they stand before Jesus and He shows them how many they led into unbelief or despair.

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  40. Oasis,

    I would love to scream & cry with you. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, OK that was my warped sense of humor, but look out, when I come out of whatever this fog I am in, I am going to raise some heck.

    Like

  41. Brenda R,

    “Gail, I think sovereignty was not explained correctly.”

    I hear your heart however, I think the church explained perfectly what their pet doctrine was. I just didn’t understand what reformed doctrine was. I naively trusted my pastor. However, I recall how my gut was screaming at me, when us wimmen wanted to start a MOPS (Mothers of preschoolers ministry) it caused such a ruckus with the pastor, the elders had to pray about it. You know why, I imagine you do, it was because women would be teaching in the church, albeit to other women, and they weren’t sure if that was biblical.

    Like

  42. Hey, Gail, hope I make sense right now, not slept in a zillion hours! Anyway, sounds like you have been through a whole lot of hell, like many here, and I am so sorry. Terrible way to live, on that daily poisonous diet. :( Can also relate to your struggle with depression, and even to having big decisions to make soon.

    I always feel like I should just shut up and stop bleeding all over Julie Anne’s blog (and other blogs, oops), but she keeps telling me how silly that is to think. So, I think you should probably feel free to vent all you want, when you are comfortable doing so.

    Wow, someone to scream and cry with, amazing. :) About to step away from blogs for a while, but will still be around, and praying for you and others here!

    Like

  43. Oasis,
    You are making a lot of sense in your sleep deprived state!
    Julie Anne has my contact info if you want to connect. No pressure, I will not feel rejected, if you don’t want to do that.That said, I will miss your voice around here, I resinate with what you have to say. You are precious & fierce. I go through my seasons of running off at the mouth here, then I recoil back into my shell. I will keep you in my prayers, and tonight, I will ask the Lord to give us beloved gals a good nights sleep. xo

    Like

  44. Wow, thanks for everything, Gail. I’m sure I’ll be bugging you soon. Also, you often come to mind, and I always read your comments carefully.

    And thanks to you, too, Julie Anne!

    Like

  45. Gail,
    I can’t feel what you are feeling, I really don’t know what it is like. My church teaches sovereignty in a very good way, has MOPS and the one after that for women with kids in school. ( We are not considered the “c” or the “a” word.) We even have ladies bible study and a monthly women to women missionary group. I am so sorry that you fell into the mess. I wish some of you that have had these experiences could come for a while. We are not perfect in anyway, but at least headed in the right direction.

    Oasis,
    I agree with Julie Anne. You need to keep talking. I didn’t realize how bad it was out there until I started reading this blog. I was told a couple of untruths along the way. The abuse I endured was by individual men, not as much the church. Some that didn’t understand why I left the X but then later on talk to me about it have found some wisdom in the move. There are still those that don’t think that I should remarry, which is not a problem really. I AM NOT LOOKING. I am 57 and really kind of like my quiet in the evening. I pray the best for all of you.

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  46. Marsha, I am happy that you found someone and that you are happy. I think it is a wee bit too soon for me to trust anyone. I have been told that I will change my mind if I meet the right person. I have been so bad at choosing that I have major fears of even going that route again. My daughter says that if I do decide to date that she is going to put them through the drill to make sure they are ok first. I think that is funny. She is getting married in October to a very sweet man. I am not sure if he knows how to raise his voice and she is not the anal person she was without him. I know it happens, but I am content with whatever the Lord has in store for me. There are things that I always wanted and never had. Not tangible things, but someone who would like to snuggle on the couch and watch an old western. That sort of thing. I try not to think about it though , there’s no sense in getting my hopes up and dwell on it. I’m probably sticking my heart out there a little too much, so I will clam up. I am happy for your though.

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  47. Brenda R, thanks. Not sure I could shut up for long – tried and failed, and accepted my nature, ha! Like you, the church had nothing to do with what happened to me. Christians are the ones who came along to intensify the pain with poisonous teaching. But ditto, never knew it was so bad out there in Christendom, until finding blogs.

    I am very, very glad you left the ex. Quiet in the evening can be great, for sure. I swore off marriage at age 11, 25 years ago, and have stayed away from the dating world completely. Even now, after having second thoughts, I’m sure I’ll never get married. Breaks my heart sometimes, but it seems impossible. I wish you happiness, wherever you go in life! :)

    Gail, sounds good to me!

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  48. Oasis,
    I have a 27 year old daughter that states she will never get married and wants children even less, which is good since she doesn’t want to get married. If she dates at all, she doesn’t tell me about it. I know 2 women who are in their 80’s who have never married and have no regrets. No particular reason. Both just said they didn’t meet anyone who would have made their lives better and are completely happy as they are.

    After the horrible lack of childhood that I had, I was determined that I would marry a good man have children and after 60 years still be holding hands. Well, so much for that. You are still young and there is a big world out there and there are good men out there. No matter where life takes you, be happy.

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  49. Lots of activity on Twitter today regarding Mark Driscoll. 9 elders have spoken out, one got fired. Paull Tripp has spoken strongly against Mark Driscoll. If you look on the sidebar, you can keep up with my tweets. Here’s my direct link: https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep

    Here is an important read: http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/files/2014/08/Concerns-and-Critical-Information-for-the-Elders-of-Mars-Hill-Church.pdf?utm_content=buffer764ae&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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  50. Brenda R, good for your daughter and those older women you know. Marriage is definitely not for everyone (including me, apart from a miracle), neither is it the be-all and end-all for a happy or meaningful life.

    Sorry your plans did not pan out, but glad you feel content. Maybe your future will more closely resemble your hopes. Either way, you be happy, too.

    Like

  51. Barbara Roberts said: “And Mark Driscoll has demonstrated repeatedly that he will not respect anyone’s “No” if he don’t want to — so whatever “Real Marriage” says about the importance of non-coercion, it is likely to be just hot air in Mark Driscoll’s own case”.
    Indeed, Barb, and this is what worries me the most. MD has proven himslef, again & again, to do what MD wants to do, because he thinks he is entitled. That’s the behaviour of an abuser, & that’s the behaviour of a sociopath. You know it, I know it–most folks here know it. But he has his little Imperial Guard still gathered aound him, & they continue to see him with rose-coloured glasses…..whilst his victims suffer.
    How long, oh Lord, how long?

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  52. Brenda R,
    I sure appreciate your tender heart. Glad you have a place where you are fed & supported. I don’t know if I will ever go back to church. (as in a building)
    Sure seems like we have some mighty fine church here. God bless You.

    Julie Anne, I have been following the saga on twitter. I pray M.D. is broken open to see his abuse, but it is with barely a mustard seed of faith that I pray with. Methinks he will be another Teflon man, and will continue to ruin & destroy people. Ditto to what zooey 111 said: ” How long, oh Lord, how long?”

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  53. There is no doubt that Mark Driscoll has talents that have kept him in power and it may be that he can keep it with the help of spin and charisma. Certainly that is his plan.

    But I cannot help but wonder how well his personality can hold together given the opposition he has had and the loss of the wider acclaim he sought. It must be very difficult for him to tamp down his anger these days. He may very well start decompensating.

    Like

  54. Excerpt from Bent Meyer’s post at the above link:

    Mark was sliding ever more, headlong into foundational character erosion. His existing belief in his entitlement, grandiosity, exploitiveness, demeaning nature and rageful vengeance, were already present and needed consistent restraining by those around him.

    “Piram of Jarmuth, drunk with strange wine,
    Who dreamed he hath fashioned all stars that shine;
    And Japhia of Lachish, a fire that flameth,
    Who did in the daylight what no man nameth.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”

    “YOU CAN’T STOP ME NOW,
    I’M STRONG NOW,
    STRONGER THAN YOUR LAW…”
    — Al Stewart, “The Last Day of June 1934″

    Like

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