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One big dilemma in spiritually abusive churches is deciding if and when to leave the church. Does God want people to leave a spiritually abusive church? Can God work through people left in an abusive church? Is there a Biblical precedent for this kind of situation? What does God’s Word say?
Should Church Members Leave Their Spiritually Abusive Church?
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I left a comment at The Elephant’s Debt blog article, David Corning, former 20-year Chairman of the HBC Elder Board speaks publicly for the first time, and got a response that I have seen before in these circumstances. I’d like to discuss it. My comment specifically challenged the idea of staying at a church in which the pastor is abusive. You can read the quote I was referring to at the beginning of my comment below in bolded font:
Julie Anne says:
“If you attend Big Harvest and are thinking about leaving, consider staying. See what God might do with this flawed man (or see what it’s like to be part of a recovery if he steps away).”
I know a lot of wives who stayed in abusive marriages waiting for their husband to change. You must ask yourself: does James MacDonald even admit he has done wrong? If he hasn’t, then what is going to magically happen to make him admit it? He is proud and arrogant and if he were going to change, you would have seen evidence of it by now. He’s had plenty of opportunity with other elders calling him out. But take a look at the video that was posted recently. I have the transcript posted here: http://goo.gl/AApBrv. It appears that he initiated this video process and appointed 4 elders to speak on his behalf. That sure doesn’t sound like someone who thinks he has done anything wrong. He’s using his elders to defend him. This is a concerted effort to make him look good and others bad. Is that how a humble and godly shepherd behaves?
So not only do you have to wait for your pastor to get a reality check of the sin he is avoiding in his own life, but now you have a group of elders who for some reason aren’t seeing the same things that the previous elders and you are seeing. Why is that? Could they be as blinded as the Chief Wolf?
What would God want you to do? Support a man who is not humble and is leading people astray and harming the church or vote with your feet saying that you will not support such hypocrisy in the House of the Lord?
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Here is the response to my comment which, as I wrote earlier, sounded familiar to me:
a thought says:
Only God can answer the question, “What would God want you to do.” I feel like you are leaving His sovereign power out of the equation with your next sentence, ” Support a man who is not humble…”. We need to seek the Lord and do what He tells us to do. If God happens to say “wait,” we need to trust Him. He is more powerful than this mess and when He is ready, He will act. He may want us at Harvest for what is to come, but then again, He may want us to “vote with our feet.” All I’m saying, is that those still at Harvest need to seek God on this and obey Him.
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I understand this comment because there is a lot at stake for leaving a church. There are many personal ties with long-standing relationships. Some people might want to stay to help others see the light. Another idea is that they may influence the pastor or church leaders to change. But what does the Bible say? Does God want us to stay in an abusive church?
Let’s take a look at God’s Word. Here are some verses to consider as we question if we should stay or leave the spiritually abusive church:
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
In this verse, Jesus is speaking and seems to be implying that our souls are more important than our physical bodies. So, it makes sense that we should make sure our souls are being taken care of properly, doesn’t it?
“Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine” (1Timothy 5:17 NKJV)
This verse shows us the importance of an elder who shares the word and sound doctrine – that elders are held to a higher standard. Should we stay with someone who is defrauding the role of elder and is putting a stain in the Body of Christ by their public and private behavior?
“Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment” (James 3:1)
Again, we see a high standard given for teachers. Would God want us to be supporting what He does not support? Scripture is clear that pastors who do their jobs poorly will have to face eternal consequences. That shows how serious God views the position. Should we not put the same amount of emphasis on integrity and right doctrine in what we allow our ears to hear?
I can assure you there are many people struggling with this situation right now, whether it be at Harvest Bible Chapel or another church. Can we brainstorm some more? Do you believe God would want you to stay in an abusive church or leave? Is there any Biblical precedent to remain in an abusive church? What about those who say they want to stay to be a positive influence to others? I’ve heard of another case where someone is staying in an abusive church to help pick up the pieces once Humpty Dumpty has his great fall. Is this wise? What are your thoughts?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Julie Anne,
I actually think this situation is the true meaning of Romans 16:17-18 (which is ironically used by spiritual abusers to justify their control tactics):
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (KJV)
“I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.” (NIV)
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Those who stay are enabling him by giving him an audience. It doesn’t do him or anyone else any good to stay, IMO.
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First of all, there is no where in scripture that states we MUST stay in a church under these circumstances. In fact, no where does it say we can’t leave for whatever reason or we are in sin. This a lie. This is a common misconception that if we leave a church or our pastor we are committing a grave sin or are in error. We have been indoctrinated by the American church that the church is the source of our salvation and the keeping of our salvation. This is a lie. Many churches had to keep this lie going because of fear of retribution from God and the lost of income/revenue to keep that church running. A pastor must ask himself- would I be able to walk away from being a pastor and lose this income? If he answers yes- he is probably a keeper. If he answers no- well….there you go. A shepherd of God is a overseer, not the boss. He is one who is an example, not the example maker or creator. It is none of his business. One thing that makes me livid is the audacity of these guys to take on the role of the Holy Spirit. They have no business in taking on Gods rightful place in each and every person. The elders and leaders role is to provide support and exhortation, not control and exploitation.
I agree that we must ask God to guide us to what decision we need to make, but usually I find that most people who are in these situations end up leaving.
There is no reason to stay in false teaching- and here we find false teaching in the form of fraudulent tithing, divisive behavior, slander, and etc..
1 Peter 4:2 states “Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, SERVING as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, NOT for DISHONEST GAIN but eagerly; NOR as being LORDS over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock”
These are pretty scathing words-
2 Peter 2:18-22
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Tom – that is exactly the proper use of Romans 16:17 – to mark and avoid false teachers. My former pastor wrongly used that verse to “Mark and Avoid” congregants he improperly put in his variety of church discipline. Here is the post I did on that topic.
Excellent! Thank you.
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Actually, If you read all of 1 Peter 2 gives you more insight.
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Especially if (as often happens in control-freak abusive churches) you have NO personal ties or relationships outside of Church, period. All your friends are from Church. All your personal ties are at Church. All your activities are Church-related. And outside of Church is only the World, the Flesh, and the Devil.
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When I bailed on a controlling shepherding group in 1976, I had contacts and friends outside of “church”. I had a D&D group and SF litfan friends I had recently made. When I bailed, I wasn’t cutting myself off from everyone I knew.
If you’re going to bail, HAVE A LIFE OUTSIDE OF CHURCH. ANY LIFE — EVEN A SMALL AMOUNT OF OUTSIDE CONTACTS AND INTERESTS COULD BE ENOUGH.
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Headless @ 4:47pm: So true–the power of an “outside” friend who accepts and supports is inestimable, and empowering when it comes to leaving the abusive church. My friends were fellow employees (Christian and non-Christian) who gathered around me, forgave me for my hyper-religiousness while in the abusive church, and communicated love and respect for me.
My take on leaving? 2 Tim 3:1ff speaks of a fallen church, led by fallen leaders who have a “form of godliness, but have denied its power.” Paul tells Timothy to “avoid such men as these (v5), and then goes on to some further description of the false leaders’ destructive effect on marriages (and therefore, families).
I think we would do well to follow Paul’s instruction to Timothy (who was no slouch, spiritually!), and head for the hills when we see abuse in church leaders. Take your money, your time, your family, etc., out of their influence, and leave them nothing but an empty pew.
Don’t stick around to complain or lodge your view–if they’re really abusers they will not care, and will find a way to use your discontent and departure as a means to frighten others away from leaving. And God will care for you, in whatever way you need.
How long would you keep eating at a restaurant after you learned its food was contaminated with ecoli? Once you realized your kids’ schoolbus driver was drinking on the job, would you put the kids on the bus? Stuff like that.
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Does anybody know what the 13 accusations against MacDonald are?
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James, from what I’ve read, they have not been released. I’m curious, too.
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“Does anybody know what the 13 accusations against MacDonald are?” Apparently it isn’t known publicly. This all gets a little tedious, but we read this from theelephantsdebt.com (http://tinyurl.com/kkwgpsb):
JMack and his puppet-elders (gang of four?) made the existence of the 13 point indictment so they could conveniently, and disingenuously, dismiss it without disclosing its contents. Our betters have spoken. Nothing to see here. Nope. Move along. Move along.
Although we cannot know the timing, “Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.” (Luke 12:2, ESV). Very sobering. To all of us, I dare say.
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Ken said:
This is so, so true, Ken. The 2nd part is so important to understand. Pastors will be RUTHLESS in their treatment of those who leave. You see, those who leave KNOW THE TRUTH. Read this again from Dave Corning. Imagine living like this for 3 years:
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From my experience: People periodically email me and ask my advice regarding their difficult church situation. One question is if they should leave their church or not. After a read through of what they have felt concerned about, it becomes clear that their church is not healthy and that there is not much that they can do about it.
My response to them is that they already have a gut feeling that things are not right and that they should leave. They, and possibly others, are being harmed for sometimes ridiculous reasons. I affirm that it is very difficult either to leave or to stay. Generally I encourage them to pay attention to their own gut feelings that they already sense that they should leave. I affirm that many others have had to make the same shocking realization that their home church is unhealthy and unsafe for them spiritually.
I affirm that there is not much that one person, a couple, or a small group of concerned people can do in a toxic church culture. A few people may stay for complex reasons like other family members being there and choose to tough it out. Even when people say that they feel that they need to stay for awhile, for whatever reason, it is usually not too long afterward that I get an email saying that they are NOW SURE that they MUST LEAVE and that they just letting me know about their decision.
Even though there is much confusion and grief through the process, once they have made this difficult decision then there seems to be a sense of peace and release. They have weighed everything up and have made the best decision in light of the circumstances. They have faced the fact that there was nothing left that they could do to change very much of anything. There is much processing that still continues for them–but once people are away from harmful and frustrating situations then they realize that though painful, there is now a chance for them to heal and recover from this devastating church experience.
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One more thing that I tell people, as has been described, is that people need to know that they may face the wrath of the church leadership if they choose to leave. I caution them about this fact and ask if they feel that they would be able to cope with any harsh action, character assassination, and/or shunning.
Usually people are now prepared for the brunt of this since staying in a toxic atmosphere would be even more harmful. Some leaders are just glad that the ‘perceived troublemakers’ have left while other leaders create havoc and use the ‘leavers’ as examples of all kinds of sinful characteristics.
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Barb said: “One more thing that I tell people, as has been described, is that people need to know that they may face the wrath of the church leadership if they choose to leave. I caution them about this fact and ask if they feel that they would be able to cope with any harsh action, character assassination, and/or shunning.”
Yes, that lines up with what Ken was saying and it’s important to know this possibility to prepare yourself. I think Ken was wise to say to leave quietly, although sometimes that doesn’t always work.
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The church is made up of people to whom God has given gifts. Those gifts were given to build up the church, and each gift is important. James MacDonald is clearly on the wrong path, as many godly former-elders have said.
If the church leadership is going the wrong way, might it be a good idea to invest your gifts at another church? There are dozens of great churches in the Chicagoland area.
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“JMack and his puppet-elders (gang of four?) made the existence of the 13 point indictment so they could conveniently, and disingenuously, dismiss it without disclosing its contents. Our betters have spoken. Nothing to see here. Nope. Move along. Move along.”
Never ceases to amaze me how often this actually works. What folks fail to see is that by not being transparent, they actually promote speculation and then charge people with gossip because they are speculating on things that are hidden from them on purpose. It becomes the normal.
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One thing I always tell folks to consider if they decide to stay (besides killing your soul and enabling evil) is to think how it affects their children if you stay. At a certain stage, they have figured out something is amiss. When I speak of how it affect them I am talking about what they are being taught by modeling. Church is not like a job where you get a paycheck for dealing with some nefarious situations. It is totally voluntary. So staying sends a strong message to your kids. Is it the message you want them to learn?
And children are usually the one big reason why people stay. As their children are usually involved in some youth groups and that is the hardest part. I think being totally upfront with them (if they are of a certain age) with your concerns is the right thing to do. You can really teach them the proper way to question and recognize bad authority systems. And that is a good thing.
The amazing thing is that kids usually see things more black and white than adults do and will recognize the injustice of a situation sooner if they know. However, if they have been taught we never question the elder, you had best get them out of there fast. You are preparing them to be good little followers and not thinking for themselves.
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My mom and I were reminiscing last night about life in our hometown. She reminded me of something I had forgotten – my brother and I asked my parents to find us a new church. We were in elementary school so I’m guessing we were maybe 8 and 10 years old at most. When my mom asked us why, we just said that we didn’t feel comfortable there anymore and didn’t trust the adults. I don’t remember what made me feel uncomfortable enough to speak up but my parents took us seriously and we moved on. If you are uncertain about whether or not to stay at a church, talk to your children. Ask about their observations and opinions – they may surprise you with their insight. Children almost always know more about difficult situations than they let on. At another church, we had a pastor with a problem of wandering hands and eyes. Surprise surprise it was the teens and children who noticed it first and brought it up. If you are having any doubts whatsoever about your time at a church, please leave.
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I left a spiritually abusive church once. My family had been involved in this church for 7 years. The first 5 years were good healthy growing years. Then the pastor started changing his theology and his management. He cancelled the home groups and started a midweek study. He wasn’t interested in any personal ministry people were doing. He only wanted people to focus on his pet projects. He was subtle in his change of doctrine. He started by having a guest preacher while he was away. His name was Royal Conquist. When I questioned the pastor about Royal’s message he wasn’t too interested in discussing it. Then he started slipping in subtle references to Royal’s theology in his sermons. I asked friends if they noticed anything different and some did. One friend talked to the pastor and subsequently decided to leave the church. When I saw that the pastor was resolved to stay on his course I decided that my family might have to take our loss and go. We had invested 5 years in this fellowship. When the pastor’s wife overheard me complaining to a friend about the change in direction she said if I didn’t like the pastor or the church I should leave. I decided to take her words seriously and we left. The day we left I told the pastor why we were leaving. I also told him what his wife said. She was evesdropping again and popped out from behind a car to say she never said that. We left with heavy hearts but by the end of the day I was satisfied we had done the right thing. We prayed for guidance and a few months later we came to where we’ve been serving since then. That was in 1985. We came home.
A year after we left that church it disbanded. The pastor moved away and became a used car salesman. He eventually got another church. 5 years after the church disbanded they had a reunion. I wasn’t surprised that the pastor wasn’t there. The talk was mostly about how the pastor had become controlling and how church had gone downhill.
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We had invested 7 years in this fellowship, not 5.
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Gary – CJ Mahaney did a doctrinal shift with Sovereign Grace Ministries many years ago. People didn’t know what was happening. I’ve read that is the primary reason the co-founder Larry Tomczak left. That’s pretty creepy, if you ask me. Good for you for leaving immediately. The pastor’s wife sounds like a case. Wow.
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7 years – – even 5 years – – that’s a long time to invest in a place. It’s sad.
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This is called “a Coup from Within.”
(HUMBLY, of course. Chuckle chuckle.)
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Julie Anne,
“Should Members leave or stay?” I find this a challenging question.
If the Direction, Doctrine, Delivery of the Preacher is in line with the Elder’s and the majority of the church and is contrary of yours especially if you are unable to identify being in a church of unconditional Love, then I say leave the church.
Not all churches that profess the Gospel embrace the same Doctrine or the same Methodology. I myself will choose to avoid Geneva Style Churches as much as I can but others might embrace it.
My lack of understanding the Bible and different doctrines that exist within the SBC made me vulnerable to abuse from Preachers that choose to keep their differing doctrine a mystery . It was the abuse however that inspired me to dig into scriptures and go on-line to discover that spiritual abuse is not an isolated problem.
If the Pastor is deceiving the congregation or practicing sin and the leadership is unaware of it, report it to the elder’s. If the membership choose not to reprimand, leave because you will suffer retaliation.
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After ten years of attending and serving at a mega church that was getting increasingly more abusive and controlling, I finally wised up and asked myself, “Why am I paying this guy to beat me with a stick?” (And providing labor)
While I still have faith in God, I no longer have faith in men that use God as an excuse to beat me with a stick.
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Excellent response, Michelle. That’s right – – why are we allowing men like that to distort God’s image as an angry tyrant?
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Mark said:
Good for you!
I cannot get past this statement from James MacDonald at the beginning of the video he broadcast for the church body. This is complete and utter heresy: We believe that the Bible that the authority of the church is vested in the elders. And that when the elders speak collectively in agreement, they speak for God to our church.
This is saying that they act as mediator. That is complete nonsense. This man is using his position of authority to control. Notice that this statement was said at the beginning of the video to imply: whatever these men say, you better believe because it came from God and if you don’t believe it or do what they say, you are not following the voice of God.
People must understand the implications of that kind of statement. If they remain at that church, that is the stance that the pastor and elders hold: that they are privy to the words of God.
My panties are in a wad over this. I am REALLY upset that this man has the audacity to speak to such a large congregation like this and who is holding this loose cannon in check? This is spiritually bullying. He is holding his church captive by his self-assumed “authoritative” words. Dang, I need to let off some Twitter steam again.
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My wife endured far more mental abuse from the Pastor’s wife and the 2 or 3 women, his wife befriended who embraced our former abusive interpretation of scripture than what I endured. It was harder for me to watch her endure the abuse and not knowing the stealth Doctrine of our Pastor.
(outside of the Pastor’s wife those women didn’t know his Doctrine either)
Now on the other hand I knew a former Pastor who also kept his doctrine a mystery and embraced an aggressive Methodology who went through divorce. I have wondered if these guys are verbally abusing their congregations lacking love how are they treating their wives, (I’m sure some of these women like it and some don’t)
Oddly, not even a into my former Pastor’s tenure when things started afresh my wife touched base with his wife about the Christmas Program and she “snapped” backed and said there won’t be any Christmas Program, not giving a reason. (this wife embraced her husband’s Methodology)
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Mark, You are definitely on to something here that has not been explored much that I have seen. I’ve covered how spiritual abuse can destroy a marriage before here, but not in this light. I think you are touching on something that is probably a very well-kept secret in the church.
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“Notice that this statement was said at the beginning of the video to imply: whatever these men say, you better believe because it came from God and if you don’t believe it or do what they say, you are not following the voice of God.
People must understand the implications of that kind of statement. If they remain at that church, that is the stance that the pastor and elders hold: that they are privy to the words of God. ”
Is MacDonald’s use of these words for the purpose of controlling and manipulating for an intended end? It is my opinion that it is. Is he emotionally abusing them with fear–if you do not obey these men, you are disobeying God? (Goodness….what an old Word of Faith/money grubbing televangelist trick….then again he does like TD Jake’s theology….). I believe he is being emotionally abusive and he is shutting down further conversation because God has spoken through these men and that is all you need, apparently. When would one get to be a Berean (that thing Paul commended) at a church like his?
Wolf alert.
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The use of those particular words at the beginning of the video was absolutely strategic. Line them up with the ways in which he controlled people/events in Dave Corning’s letter. It is a pattern of control to manipulate instill fear, to make you look to THEM FIRST before God. It is dangerous and it is wrong.
Now, here is the confusing part – – you can listen to MacDonald and his sermons and you might here some very good preaching. What we need to look at is his behavior – how he treats those with whom he has close connections.
Here is a new letter that just was published today on The Elephant’s Debt blog. It discusses exactly what I’m talking about. Spiritual Abusers don’t always abuse from the pulpit as in having twisted doctrine. It can manifest itself like this very well-written letter by former staff, Matt Till.
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I think there is a problem in the way this situation is being viewed: “See what God might do with this flawed man.” There is a huge difference between someone who is “flawed” and someone who is abusive.
The first implies someone of goodwill who is, none-the-less, imperfect. It suggests an equal playing field, a disagreement between equals.
The latter is a no-win situation where one person uses an unequal power structure to subjugate, denigrate and invalidate another.
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Ruth, your ‘later’ assessment of a ‘no-win situation’ would be the unfortunate, but typical, way that these scenarios play out. Those of common faith would hope for a decidedly better outcome for their particular church community, but as in the huge majority of similar cases that have been observed over time, it will turn out to be horribly disappointing in the end for the vast majority of people.
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As you say, Barb, we do hope for a better outcome. But it just doesn’t seem to be the way it goes in cases of abuse 😦
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This is what happens when you have a hodge-podge of theologies under one “banner”. I attend a Harvest plant and the pastor is most certainly not reformed/new calvinist. I know others as well. Don’t ask me how this ridiculous state of affairs happened but the deal is- apparently there is no “requirement” to be in the reformed camp to be a Harvest pastor. Which actually, if I really think about it, shouldn’t surprise me too much because I believe it is more important for James MacDonald to have “his” concept of what a church should look like be emulated. The theology is secondary to his massive ego. I encourage you to get “Vertical Church” and read the book. It’s chilling. It reads like a manifesto. It is no more than JMac’s redefinition of church. It’s really a cult manifesto. Yet I see folks every Sunday who “ooo” and “ahhh” over it. The ignorance of the flock on the whole matter is so heartbreaking, and real information is so hard to get because leaders KNOW the flock is ignorant and for the most part is content to remain so and therefore the status quo is never shaken up. My heart bleeds for the innocents taken in by this man’s massive sham operation. It is truly unbelievable, unreal, unimaginable that we could be so STUPID. Pastors and church elders and members included, because I truly believe he has fooled even the wisest of men, HE IS THAT GOOD. He is truly the con man of con men and a forerunner of the lawless one who is yet to come. Our Lord Himself even said that even the elect would be fooled by the lie of antichrist, IF SUCH A THING WERE POSSIBLE. Please, people of Harvest, or those in a megachurch with a rock star pastor, anyone who reads this, understand and recognize how this all goes down. The lawlessness of the end times is upon us, the spirit of antichrist is here, THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE. PLEASE I implore all who read this is the name of Jesus to wake up from your slumber before it is too late. By their fruits you shall know them!
“Oh what God is doing through HARVEST. Look at the baptisms we have had at HARVEST. Look at the children’s ministry AT HARVEST. Look at the HARVEST homeless ministry. HAVEST is GROWING. YOU ARE LOVED AT HARVEST.” Sound familiar? HARVEST HARVEST HARVEST HARVEST, GROW GROW GROW GROW. Why? Why the massive explosion of church plants over the world in the past 20 years- and not just Harvest? James Macdonald and Mark Driscoll and their ilk jet into a third world country, plant a church and move on in a blaze of glory! It’s worldwide! Our Lord said he had come not to bring peace on earth but a sword, to turn a son against his father. He said ALL MEN will hate you because of me. He promised an apostate church that looks and acts like the real deal but is A LIE to fool all but the elect. Now we have rock star pastors the adoring throngs follow because THEY DON’T WANT TO FOLLOW CHRIST, the kind of life and sacrifice He calls us to is NOT what the world wants or is looking for.
I truly never realized in my own arrogance that the wolves would be this good. But, as the apostle said, they are truly savage and will ensnare even the brightest and alert of minds. They spare NO ONE.
The only reason true christians aren’t hanging from steeples in this country is we still have an open society that will not yet allow such acts. But such a time is rapidly approaching.
” And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”
Amen, come Lord Jesus.
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“I truly never realized in my own arrogance that the wolves would be this good. ”
Yes, they are that good at it, You have to get completely away from it to see it. And even that takes time. It is that powerful. Thought reform. Mega church attendees are especially susceptible . The crowd feeds on each other and affirm it. How could that many people be wrong or fooled? Well, history is replete with examples.
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Mighty Works of GOD(TM) and Look at All The Souls Being SAVED(TM).
Mike Warnke’s fanboys said the exact same things in their defense of that Mighty Man Of Gawd when Cornerstone exposed him as a complete fraud.
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HUG, it is awesome you always remind me of the false teachers of the 1970’s. I can’t help but think of charismatic Pentecostal preachers with huge collars and wide lapels that could poke someone’s eye out. Marjoe Gortner comes to mind, though at least he was honest and outed himself.
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I’m sick and tired of it all!! Just have faith in God already!
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I know this is a very old post, but I have been trying to research HBC issues and spiritual abuse. It is NOT just the main campus, but it trickles down to all of his church plants. I would go as far as to say that ALL HBC’s are cultish.
“If you attend Big Harvest and are thinking about leaving, consider staying. See what God might do with this flawed man (or see what it’s like to be part of a recovery if he steps away.”
This quote that you put in this article made me want to get sick. I heard this sooooo much as my local HBC church plant. The pastor was a MacDonald clone, as I believe most of them are. They have to go to HBC training so they can plant a church EXACTLY as MacDonald would want them to. It’s more of a chain than anything.
Anyway, I would love more informations about this. I have seen long time Christians completely change after attending HBC. I admit, I did myself, until God opened my eyes. It was not change for the good either. And there was this glazed over look in their eyes. HBC everything. Coffee mugs, tattoos, Tshirts, ESV bibles, HBC conferences. Plus, they suck you in with heavy pressure to serve in as many ways as possible so that if you WERE to leave, you would have to make a huge shift in your life and it would cause MANY waves and MUCH devastation! It was like HBC was the ONLY way to God.
I feel like they have been laying low after the Elephant Room scandal (which was completely covered up at my HBC plant), but MUCH is going on there that needs to be exposed. Would love to hear from others if you are out there! I have had a very hard time healing from this and my ideas of God are really messed up now. I know it will take time and that God will bring me out of this. Still, I wish I had former HBC members to talk to that understand.
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whoops. forgot to turn on notifications.
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I found this thread as my husband and I finally walked away from our local Harvest after a year of pain. We had tried it, became members, joined a group but we were so lonely. There was an HBC click of “core team” members. We left, but struggled with guilt after leaving. We recently went back to make amends and consider rejoining. The first day back a woman contacted me to later text me how miserable she was at the church and she wanted out. We also learned other families left for the same reasons.
We began questioning it all again. So many similarities are happening at this local HBC as the main church. We were viewed as traitors. They weren’t interested in knowing us but getting us to join to serve. We felt unwanted and used. It’s still all about growing the church but sadly many are not sticking around.
After going back again, I feel like we got the big picture. We gave honest feedback to the pastor, but realized we cannot fix it. Finally closure.
I told my husband, their slogan should rather be “Glorifying HARVEST by making disciples.”
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Would love to connect with you, Marie! After leaving a local HBC in my town, I have wished to have a someone who experienced what I did, to communicate with. If interested, maybe JA can get us in touch with one another. I resonate with your post!!
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Toilet, thanks! Yeah I’d be open to connecting! Nice to know we’re not alone.
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Toiler
James M. spoke at my megachurch years go. He was ” on tour” with a book he did… Forget the name. I just remembered at the time it seemed as if God was only speaking to him…there was some kind of move of the Holy Spirt for him to do this. the title was something with the word “‘rain” …I guess I should have looked up the name.
As if he was the only one hearing fom God..he had to get this message out.
I kind of was done with him after that.
I bought many CDs from him prior to that. I cant even listen to his voice now.
He had one teaching where he criticized anyone on prescriptions for psychiatric reasons. He said it was all in the way one thinks. He got lots of backlash for that.
I can remember I was walking when I heard this particular message, and then listened to it again to make sure I understood what he was saying.
I’m not a defender of Rxs, but I don’t think Pastor has any authority to speak out the way he did on this. He has no training. Very arrogant. He’s not a Dr, he has no training to make any diagnosis on anyone and that was totally inappropriate and damaging to those who had true medical conditions.
Some of these guys are unbelievable. It’s already been discussed in this blog hoe damaging the church can be to those already harmed…control freaks they are.
You make a good point that hese churches get you so wrapped up in getting others to serve, that your life centers around the church…it’s all-encompassing. It wreaks of a works based gospel.
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Ps toiler
Glad God opened your eyes.
He did that with us in our church.
These churches hire very expensive marketing companies.
I believe my old church grew rapidly after they handed out bumper stickers.
They praised God for their building fund success, yet spent tens of thousands to do this. It’s quite a racket.
Most people didn’t know marketing and finance companies were behind a 60 million dollar collection for a new sanctuary that never happened…and no one questioned what happened to that $.
It was very very painful.Took many years to recover . Lost many friends who really weren’t friends at all. Most churches near us follow the mega church model.
God did a very painful thing in my life taking me through it.
I can’t even describe the persecution I was up against.
Praying for you and your family.
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I also want to say there’s hope in the end.
You may be alone, but you are alone with The Lord.
You can hear from him without all the distraction.
I’m celebrating 20 years of salvation.
10 of those years have been on blogs such as this…processing, venting.,anger,sadness, pain..finding out I wasn’t alone.
We’re all here for eachother .thats really what “church” ought be.
Thanks to Julie Anne for being an outlet God is using for this purpose.
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This kind of stuff makes me so angry. He is NOT a doctor! You can look at scans of peoples brain and see the differences, and then the differences post medication (not that it’s a panacea or always the answer, but in some cases it is absolutely necessary). Goodness, I was feeling very down for a bit and found out my vitamin D was low and that was probably related. Stop telling people just to think better.
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Re: “come out of HER -MY PEOPLE-”
First problem:
You need to read Revelation to find this issue.
Second problem:
You need to believe the message from John is important to heed (Rev 1).
Third problem:
You need to be honest and seeking God to find out what ‘her’ is and who ‘my people’ are.
It seems in the NT that genuine faith will be rare.
Deception will be high, apostasy the norm and false teachers/prophets will abound.
John marvelled at what he saw. The angel asked “why?”. Every Sunday professing believers park their bums for an hour and sing ‘worship songs’ to the Lord. The language of Christians is spoken and then out the door until the following meeting.
I wonder if John was marvelling at this thing we do called Christianity?
Church meetings?
Who knows?
Whatever HER is (spiritual idolatry perhaps?) the people of God need to run away fast from IT.
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