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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith. There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.
Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case. Tina’s story is only one of countless stories. Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.
More articles can be found in these posts:
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1
In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers). After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.
Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit. One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins. In September of 2012, Tina contacted me. We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog. She agreed and started working on her story.
Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit. Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story. She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve been saving her story all this time. Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety. It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser. Thank you, Tina. Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.
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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalm 15
The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.
Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story
September 28, 2012
Written by Tina Jenkins
I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.
The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.
As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left. I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found. I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.
Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them. I only attended church and was not involved. As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry. That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services. After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try. I loved it! Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!
I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord. I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have. I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people. The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe. It made my heart ache. But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.
During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down. I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy. This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord. Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly. It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave. But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him. Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job. Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit. When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.
Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner. I remember saying, “No.” As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say. Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it? (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.) I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on. He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on. One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.” I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him. She left and then came back and said, “Right now.” At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be. Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy. I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was. After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!” I was in shock! I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.
He can’t kick me out of the church? Can he? This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me. It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission. I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested. Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control. There was never an apology from Bob.
Many might wonder why I stayed after that. It was very complicated in my mind. My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life. I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.” So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.
Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved. Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me. Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?” I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church. I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly. I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership. The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok. I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit. It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling. I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying. I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore. I had to step out of the ministry.
Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid. I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand. Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well. I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance. I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man. He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob. Bob runs the show with an iron fist. He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach. I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career. My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.
Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel. My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study. Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.
I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.
After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…
Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?
Why did all those good people leave around this time?
What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?
How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.
Where is all the tithe money going exactly?
Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.
Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?
Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.
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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church. Here it is:
Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dear Pastor Bob,
This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:
I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.
I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.
However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart. One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor. In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.
I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear. I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.
I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.
In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?
I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.
Respectfully,
The Jenkins Family
Thank you Tina.
This is a very disturbing story. I listened to it several years ago from Tina directly. When I listened carefully to every detail, it brought back vivid memories of stories shared with me back in 1994, regarding similar issues. Tina is very brave, and has a determined will to see that truth is finally told about the facade surrounding Calvary Chapel Visalia. It is a very toxic environment for the reasons she shares. I hope others like her will come forward with their own stories, because there are many.
Thanks for your courage, Tina. You have no idea how common your story is. You are not alone. This is one of the reasons why Alex has had to be so forceful in bringing all of Calvary Chapel into this. The system breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them. I wish I could tell you the story of how Calvary Chapel nearly ruined me. I served as a youth pastor for 12 years. An associate pastor for 2. I served in worship ministry for 10. You would be hard pressed to find me in a Calvary Chapel again. I am a heretic to those whom I taught, and an outcast because I stood up against one well known pastor in the CC movement.
You have my prayer and support. Alex knows how to get you in touch with my wife and I, if you would like to talk.
Thanks for your courage, Tina. You have no idea how common your story is. You are not alone. This is one of the reasons why Alex has had to be so forceful in bringing all of Calvary Chapel into this. The system breeds tyrants and sociopaths. It protects them. I wish I could tell you the story of how Calvary Chapel nearly ruined me. I served as a youth pastor for 12 years. An associate pastor for 2. I served in worship ministry for 10. You would be hard pressed to find me in a Calvary Chapel again. I am a heretic to those whom I taught, and an outcast because I stood up against one well known pastor in the CC movement.
You have my prayer and support. Alex knows how to get you in touch with my wife and I, if you would like to talk.
Thank you, sweet sister. Everything you have said rings true to me also as I saw the same things. Not only from the leader but also many in leadership in the flock. And….as you said….you believe the boys because of what you saw, as do I.
Tina, thanks for your openness and honesty. I am sorry you have had to go through these trials, but we know that God is able to work ‘all things together for GOOD for those who love Him…’ You and Russ (and Alex) are prayed for regularly as well as all those beloved brethren who have attended (and those who still attend) CC Visalia.
Not all Calvary Chapels are bad, not all people that own guns are bad, not all people are bad, not all food is bad, not all public schools are bad, not all presidents are bad, not all pastors are bad. Tina even says this one man changed the church affiliation to be independent, it is a sad sad story but we shouldn’t blame a group for one bad “pastors” actions.
Hi Jill – Thanks for stopping by. I just checked over the post and can’t see any place where it says all Calvary Chapel pastors are bad. That’s just not something that I would say because I do not believe it to be true. I also would not say that all Sovereign Grace churches and pastors are bad or all Independent Fundamental Baptist churches and pastors are bad. I did, however say this: There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. That little “if” word is so important. It really is important that we take a look at the hierarchal structure and and see how the system is able to handle abuse cases. Or . . . . is the system so messed up that it allows abuse to occur and continue? That is the pattern that many are observing. We need to keep talking.
I’ll bet there were a couple decent coaches at Penn State, too, but the system demanded an overhaul, didn’t it?
Tina, thank you for your bravery in telling your story and in how you stood up to Bob! I’m grateful for how you doing your part has helped so may of us!
Jill,
The fact that you would defend the Calvary brand in the face of a victim, Tina’s story, without acknowledging the pain she went through first, shows a lack of love.
Oh the stories I could tell … 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 … CC pastors and counting …
Any group that has all the power in the pastor’s hands and no meaningful accountability is dangerous … even if your pastors seems like a good guy for now. “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” –Lord Acton
In case you don’t know, one of the distinctives of being a Calvary Chapel is that your pastor is a Moses Model style leader, which means he has all the power and answers to no one. If your pastor claims he’s not a Moses Model, then ask him how he is still a Calvary Chapel? Remember, ONLY your pastor is associated with Calvary Chapel not the attenders. Without membership the pastor doesn’t have to legally answer how he spends the money.
You’re right, Gail. I’m sure it took Tina many painstaking hours to recount this difficult time as she wrote this. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were tears shed. I know the first time I saw my name in “lights” publicly, it was pretty emotional for me. This is not fun – it is not pretty. It’s too bad Jill seemed to overlook that.
Tina’s story made me very upset and unfortunately it is one of many that I was given. I sat across a board room table from Chuck Smith, Dave Rolph and Chuck’s attorney Janet Carter and shoved a stack of testimonies across the table…one of the stories was the Jenkins family. People wonder why I freak about the BG situation and won’t let it go? Well, above is one of a ton of reasons.
Yes, thank you Tina for having the courage to come forward.
The reason Tina has the courage to come forward with this information is that she counted the cost to follow Jesus many years ago. Once she is convinced of the truth, she is fiercely loyal to it. Tina does not make up stories. Many of the others like Tina, have sat on their stories for many years, not wanting to bring any reproach to the name of their Savior or His Church. But they see how destructive just a few, or even one person can be when they allow fear to silence them, We will be harassed in this world for following Jesus but it should never come from within the walls of a church.
Thank you all for your prayers and encouragement. Funny thing, when I read this yesterday, tears were running down my face. Yes, it is still painful, but I will survinve and I do believe God has a purpose in it. I’m actually greatful to be gone from there. No more abuse. Now I hope we find justice and truth for the Grenier boys. The Lord sees what is going on and I believe he will see that justice takes place.
Amen, Bryan, your words are so good!
Tina – I’m always amazed at how one person’s personal story can move people emotionally. I think we have a record here. As of this comment, 86 people have shared your story on Facebook. That’s a lot. Who knows how many will read it and identify with what you have shared. Some might be able to acknowledge for the first time that maybe something is wrong at their own church. That is what personal stories do. Thank you, again, Tina.
Hi Julie, 100% agree with what Grateful wrote, wish I would have said it! Maybe there is another Gail who comments here, but kudos’s go to Grateful.
Tina Thank-you. I so appreciate the way strength & tenderness flows out of your words, hopefully more courage will be mine in time, and I will be able to respond gracefully. Afraid I am more of a gal of thunder, because I want beat these guys up.
Hi Tina,
Thanks for posting your story…I hope many will read it. You portray your emotions in such a way that all of us feel your pain! You gave a very accurate picture of the way Bob Grenier of Calvary Chapel Visalia rolls and mirrors many of the things that I personally saw and experienced. I believe that you would have a legitimate case with the California Labor Department as would “R” and “J”. Employers cannot legally harass employees in such a manner.
We also had a very informal Bible study in our home and Bob continually would say from the pulpit that anyone having a Bible study needed to contact the church office. Bob even sent a little spy to our study to check it out.
I had a very similar “office experience” with Bob. I was called in after writing him a letter asking him a question about his Easter sermon. I did not feel the need to go into his office either, thinking we could talk about it after church in the foyer, but he insisted. Long story short, he lost his temper with me, no self-control whatsoever. I am writing this to say that Tina’s story is legitimate.
I want to appeal to people at CCV to consider all the evidence and testimony that has been presented by many of us and ask your pastor the hard questions and ask yourselves who is telling the truth.
Thank you, Laurie, for validating Tina’s personal story publicly. Maybe someone should look into contacting the California Labor Department. Some pastors seem to think they are above the law. I suppose that might happen if you are buddies with the entire police force, though, after having served as volunteer chaplain for so many years. I think the Visalia Police Department knows that all eyes are on them now.
The need to have oversight of Bible studies is simply a control maneuver. The next step beyond that is that you all need to submit your prayers to him for approval. Give me a break. Pastor Bob Grenier is not behaving like a shepherd with that kind of bullying. Bob Grenier, step down as pastor. You are not following scriptural precedent for a godly shepherd who tends his sheep.
Tina,
Thank you for your personal account of your time at CCV. I worked as Bob’s (i refuse to any longer use the title pastor for him – he in no way fits the biblical definition) secretary for five years, 1984-89 and so many of your experiences were so similar to mine. Bob told me on more than one occasion that He would NEVER be subject or accountable to anyone! Sadly, we in the office at the time, used to joke that if bob were not a “cc pastor” he would make a great mafia hit man. My words, I take responsiblity for them.
Our family left brokenhearted in about 1993 – we loved and still love the family of Christ that we were blessed to be a part of there. Several of our dear friends were still attending up to last year and some are still there! I too, did not want to talk about my experiences because I did not want to be “divisive”, gossip or cause harm to the work of God. That all changed when I became aware of what had happened to the boys when they were under bob and gayle’s “care”. For me, that is when things went from being a systemic problem with church structure to felonious. That is when I spoke up and will continue to speak up and stand with Alex and Paul.
Thank you Tina. I continue to pray that those who know the truth will come forward, that many will be set free from the instiutuionalized system of abuse. IMO your letter to bob was beyond gracious. God bless you and your family.
Wow, I continue to be amazed at how God works. And honestly, if my story help just one other person to identify spiritual abuse then it was worth it. Painful, but worth it.
Gail you make me laugh. I try to be careful with my words because I still want to represent Christ the right way. Honestly, I don’t always write what I’m thinking! LOL I’m just like everyone else, a very common person, of no real reputation or status in the community. After I left CCV, I started taking up karate. Perhaps in my subconscious, I joined so no man could ever harass me again and I would have the inner and outer strength to take care of myself if I needed to.
Thank you, Kris, for sharing your story. It’s interesting how so many of us in this kind of environment felt so much guilt for talking. We convinced ourselves or were taught that it is gossiping or sin to talk about our pastor in a negative light. It is not gossip to tell the truth. It is not gossip to expose people who abuse. I think it is a sin to not expose when there is abuse. But we had to really fight an internal battle to get to that point. For me, it happened when I saw kids hurt. I’ve heard that echoed in the CCV story regarding the Grenier boys – - the Grenier boys’ story compelled them to speak out. I am hoping that the CCV lawsuit will signal a louder alarm to the bigger problem within Calvary Chapel churches where bully pastors can go unchecked.
Kris, thank you for sharing your story. I can tell you that my rough draft was not gracious at all. I re-wrote that about 5 times before I was satisfied. My husband helped me be gracious. I’m very frank and sarcastic at times and believe me there was a lot of editting.
I have been thinking alot about how I will feel if Alex and Tim win this case. I will feel relieved. This man, in my opinion, brings shame to the name of Christ and Christians as a whole. Funny you mentioned the mafia hit man. I kind of thought of him as the mafia pastor to. When you have to fear a pastor, there is something wrong. There is reallly something wrong. First of all fear is not from God. Any man who enjoys casting fear and intimmidation on someone is not of God, in my opinion. Not only that, he cast fear in women, which to me is even worst. I wonder if that makes him feel big? Powerful? What kind of man bullies women and makes them cry? Yells at them and tells them to remain silent or else? I have zero respect for that man,Zero.
“After I left CCV, I started taking up karate”
Tina, this is just great. I don’t know much about karate, other than chopping a block in two. Have you ever visualized Bob’s face when wacking on a block?. Seems like a good way to work out some of the hurt… lol. jk.
I have not read this book: Frederick Buechner’s: Speak What We Feel (Not What We Think We Ought to Say) Probably wont- but the title alone grabbed me, I have so much baggage left over from fourteen years in step-ford land that I am always editing what I really want to say, out of fear that i am not being biblical. ugh.
Tina and any other CCV reader – - – have you had thoughts about what will happen after Tim and Alex win this case? (I truly believe they will – the complaint is horribly written and Tim and Alex’s biggest defense is that they believe what they have written to be true.) So then what? The lawsuit will not remove BG from the pulpit.
Gail, I just recently became acquainted with Frederick Buechner’s works. I’ve only read a small amount, but he is good!
Tina…most have zero respect for Mr. Grenier. That is not slander, idle gossip, or a lie. It’s the plain truth. From the many complaints of women who worked under Grenier, they seem to have a legitimate action of workplace harassment. At least it can be established that he has a terribly unbalanced view of women, and the gift they bring to any church.
Well Julie Anne, I have thought of that. Honestly, if people know the truth about him and still want to go to church there, then so be it. I’m not trying to ruin his business, I just want full disclosure. People need to be informed or I believe it to be misleading. Now, if they choose to keep their heads in the sand, close their eyes and plug their ears, then that is certainly their choice. Unless Bob changes his character, then it will certainly be repeated again and again. I will always be here for Bob’s rejects and castaways because I know there will continue to be them. It’s all very tragic, in my opinion. I do not take joy in any of this, what would have given me joy is if it never happened at all. But I won’t be bullied by him anymore and I will trust the Lord to be my protector.
Gail, LOL, you might want to take up karate! It does help!
Tina: I’m struck at your choice of words for a pastor regarding his church: I’m not trying to ruin his business, That says a lot!
Interesting word: Business. Why, because that is what it seems to me to be, a business rather than ministering to God’s flock.
It is a good question to ask. It doesn’t matter whether a pastor calls or names his church a church, it matters how the public and those who attend perceive it to be. The twenty-somethings today see the church as a fairly irrelevant place to be. A place that has been hijacked by a particular brand of politics, etc. And if Tina or others look back on there experience in a CC and it feels like it was more of a business than a church, then there are real problems in that church. Here are some other questions to ask to overcome the business label. Does that church promote itself and a ‘celebrity’ pastor? Does the pastor promote his name in all the social media and sell books to extend his reputation? Who in the church gets the most attention, Jesus or the faces of the church? Does it cost money to attend in indirect ways? Like buying coffee and food items in the church cafe, or books and Jesus merchandise in the church bookstore? Does the church ‘profit’ from any of its sponsored events, retreats, men and women’s conferences, cruises, outreaches?
Church should be a place to fellowship around the Word, around prayer, around the ordinances of communion and baptism. The church should be active in ministering to its families and evangelize along family and close relational lines. Churches should be intentionally seeking unity with others who love God regardless of denominational affiliation. Churches should have a clear view of local and international mission, and be aware of their particular part in accomplishing the Great Commission. Building properties, developing written resources, and employing paid religious staff, are to be focused on the mission, never on brand development or to enhance the public reputation of its lead pastor/priest/prophet/pope.
Well it came out of one of his top usher’s mouth one day. I said to this usher, “Geezz, he runs this place like a business.” This usher said,”It is a business.” I was shocked. I’m not shocked anymore. I see that it is indeed really that, the usher was speaking the truth.
That’s why I didn’t fit into leadership there. I don’t see church as a business. I don’t see people as disposable. I thought that as someone in leadership, I was making a vow to God to care for those He place in my care, the children, the parents, the teachers and I thought we were supposed to love one another with a godly love. I thought we were supposed to be compassionate toward one another, seeking the best interest of the other. I guess I was wrong.
Tina, that is exactly what the Church is about. Unfortunately it seems much of American church life has sold out to marketing and a host of other idolatries. CCV is not a good example of a healthy church. All churches will have issues but some remain healthy when the whole corporate culture is humbly following Christ, and living in the freedom that Jesus gives our soul. Pastors have their place and role but if they get in the way of Jesus’ loving work, then they are to be reproved or removed. Your ideal is biblical and should never be discarded. A poor church experience can leave many scars but following Jesus faithfully will cause bruises too. We live in a hostile world, and at times, it creeps into the church. Taking a stand for Truth will cause some degree of hurt but erring on the side of what Jesus has made clear in his Word is always the best action.
That’s true Bryan, but I don’t know if I will ever have the desire to serve like that again. Who knows though, God could change my heart.
Something that has helped me more and more over the years is developing a more correct view of “ministry”. CC and most other evangelical churches promote a distortion that is entirely unbiblical. There is no distinction between secular and sacred work. From a Christian point of view, all work is sacred. When a pastor asks if you are “called” into the ministry, and they are referring to paid pastoral leadership of some kind, it betrays their poor understanding of the theology of work. So Tina, if you serve your family, or the students in the office at school, or the customers in the bank, or the children in your neighborhood, then you are serving Christ in ministry. All ministry is not directly related to gospel sharing in a verbal sense but all our work is a means to make God known. That is what is meant by the phrase in Genesis, “to bless all the families of the earth.” You certainly are testifying to the work of God in your life when you share your painful story and how God is moving more deeply in your heart. You are ministering in a very Bible supported way. Just not paid for it.
Paul, in Ephesians, makes it clear that all of us have a gift or gifts to use in building the Kingdom of God. Some are pastor/teachers. To lead is a very significant and necessary role. But to give the impression, as so many modern pastors do, that they have a special anointing that is not available to the same degree in you, is false teaching. The Bible often states the need to gain the wisdom from a multitude of counselors. Multiple views gives a more complete picture of the situation. All spiritual gifts necessary are employed. One man does not have all the gifts, thus will not have all wisdom. It is possible to assume that a congregation of saints, humbly following God, will have equal or better counsel than one senior religious leader. That is why I reject the Moses-One-Man-Show promoted within CC. If C Smith claimed to be infallible, that is one thing. But he claims to be a sinner saved by grace, and not glorified yet. That means he will err, and possibly err severely sometimes. A pastor leading must see the necessary and wise input of his Elders and congregants as the way God speaks to them in the manifold wisdom of God. To set up an authoritarian structure will limit the full wisdom of God.
Thanks for sharing that thought! That’s more natural for me anyway, I love to help those in need in a practical way. I don’t need a salary to do that, none of us do, and we are able to freely love. I think that if everyone in ministry served without pay, we could pull the weeds out, and truely see the wheat! Wouldn’t that be wonderful, people serving people without the need to be paid. What a concept!
BTW…another side note. The CCV fiasco started as a private, spiritually sensitive attempt to get to the bottom of some relatively serious accusations. Most thought the pastor would accept godly, loving rebuke. Most thought him to be spiritually mature enough to respond in humility. Most thought corrections would be made if necessary. But that was driven by what was seen and understood from the public persona of the pastor. Not many knew of the apparent dichotomy between the public and private character of the man. As evidenced over the past several years, and the initiation of this defamation suit, the pastor functions from a very different set of rules than the Bible he has committed to teach and follow. Sound thinking people can clearly see what is happening in this story. The big picture is gaining clarity as the little details keep trickling out.
Just a thought….I don’t believe Jesus received a salary. Oh wait, He was the servant of all and lead by example, loving the body of Christ, washing their feet. Wouldn’t that be wonderful to have leaders in the church that followed Christ example.
The power of any local church is controlled by the charitable giving of the average church attendee. If there is any question as to the soundness of character in any paid pastor’s life, then the church should simply withdraw their financial support. It won’t be too long in a small church for the pastor to “wise up” and maybe go seek employment elsewhere.
Yes Tina. I think Jesus would turn just a few tables in the foyer of many churches, as well as at the many conferences and retreats. Jesus shares his Glory with no man, even though he empowers all men who truly seek him.
I often think of what Chuck Smith is responsible for in the movement he leads. The casualness disturbs me now. Can you think of Moses or even the High Priest climbing the mountain or entering the Holy of Holies with a Hawaiian shirt on and a grande Starbucks caramel latte in hand?
To all those in Exile, chosen or forced, have a great Sabbath rest. God will heal your soul, and restore your trust in the genuine Church.
Tina
Thank you for your story and your courage to speak out.
There is NO Excuse – for Abuse… Of any kind.
You write…
“I don’t see church as a business.” “I don’t see people as disposable.”
“…I guess I was wrong.”
NO – You are NOT wrong. You are correct. We, as “The Church of God,” – His Body…
“we were/Are supposed to be compassionate toward one another,”
“seeking the best interest of the other.”
Stick with what “you know” to be “Truth.” Jesus will teach you all truth.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
And Jesus will show us – How we can “serve” Him – And who to “serve.”
Seems we are to “Serve” Jesus and “Follow Him.” – NOT serve people. – Huh???
But – When you serve and follow Jesus – You will serve people. – Say what???
There is a difference.
John 12:26
If any man “Serve Me,” let him follow me;
and where I am, there shall also “My Servant be:”
if any man “Serve Me,” him will my Father honour.
Tina
I appreciate your responses and how you are seeing our walk with Jesus.
One challenge for us, as I see it is with the word – Church – And how we use it.
And – How the Bible uses the word – Church? Makes an interesting Bible study.
In the Bible, did anyone ever “Go to church? Join a church? Give money to a church?
So for me – It becomes – Which church are we talking about?
1 – “The Church of God?”
2 – the church of man?
1 – “The Church of God?” – Isn’t that where Jesus, He is the head of the body, Col 1:18.
(The ekklesia, the called out ones), The Church? And “ALL” are important?
Where Jesus has “given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:” 1Cor 12:24.
And Jesus asks His Disciples NOT to be called Leader – “ONE” is your Leader – Jesus.
2 – the church of man? – Isn’t this where man is in control, in charge? Making up rules?
Taking “Titles/Positions” NOT found in the Bible. Pastor/Leader Reverend?
Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor, Holy Reverend, Most Holy Reverend, Pope, Dr, M.Div.
Where a “Mere Fallible Human” goes to a “secular” Goverment organization, IRS,
and asks permission to be called “Church.” They fill out a form, called a 501 (c) 3.
When/if you’re approved, you become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation. The IRS calls church.
Does that sound like “the church of God” in the Bible?
Did Jesus shed “His Blood” to purchase – a Building, an Organization, an Institution,
a Denomination, a Business, an IRS $ Corporation?
NOPE – Jesus shed His Blood to purchase – His Body, His People, His Church.
You and me.
Should His People call an IRS $ Corporation – His church? AAARRRRGGGHHH
No – Where we ALL suffered “Spiritual Abuse” was NOT – “The Church of God.”
It was the church of man, a steeple $ corporation, “The Corrupt Religious System.”
“The Church of God” “The Body of Christ” His People – is how you describe it…
“be compassionate toward one another, seeking the best interest of the other.”
“I love to help those in need in a practical way.”
“people serving people without the need to be paid. What a concept!”
“loving the body of Christ, washing their feet”
And – Every once in awhile, I get to experience “the Church of God ‘ in action.
Thank You Jesus…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Amen and Amen to A Amos love, Amoslove, and Bryan. I had this thought the other day….I was thinking, it was all a lie, 20 years of my life. Then God spoke to my heart and said, “My relationship with you wasn’t a lie.” And it made me smile and say, “Yes, Lord you are right.” Bob deceived me, but God was real and alive in my life and still is.
Tina, I was going to post a comment here for you and others but decided to drop it here: http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/03/03/calvary-chapel-chuck-smith-the-moses-model-let-the-little-dogs-bark/comment-page-1/#comment-9226
Thank Monax. When I read the responses to my story, I indeed feel the love of God coming through to me and I get all choked up and moved in my spirit and God tells me it’s going to be ok. Thanks all of you for your love and support. This feels like church to me
What I also feel is God’s righteous anger, which says enough is enough. I have always felt Christians are too whimpy now a days. But in the last 5 years I have seen good men and women rise up and take a stand and that is very refreshing!
Thank you Alex, Tim and Paul for leading the way and helping God’s church find healing.
Thank you Bryan, Julie Ann and all the others for all the support and love you have shown me.
I have been thinking a lot today, trying to synthesize a bunch of what has taken place over the years at CCV and CC in general. I think there is a silver lining in all the revelations that have been leaking out in the last few years.
Calvary Chapel is very representative of much of the anti-intellectual segment of the evangelical church today.Their Distinctives are an attempt at giving an historical and theological basis for what they are and what they do. They are trying to simplify several tensions that have origins way back to the Reformation. Much of their practice is a form of pietism; emphasizing bible study and seeking the intimate leadership of the Holy Spirit in everyday experience. They certainly are not Reformed in doctrine but hold to the high view of scripture that the Reformers held. No matter how much emphasis they place on the centrality of the Word of God, they seek an informal and casual experience of faith that leans on impressions from the Lord that doesn’t always square with scripture. In other words, they are squishy theologically. More certainly can be said about that.
The silver lining mentioned above very well may be the fact that the average, once manipulated and oppressed lose membership that has become exiled from CC, are now clinging more tightly to Jesus, and are studying with their eyes wide open. There is a more informed lay population, and they are searching the scriptures with new vigor. They are also more willing to pay the price of true discipleship by suffering alienation and ridicule from controlling religious leaders, and calling them out regarding their folly and failures. If you know your church history, Luther openly called the Pope the Anti-Christ in his day.
I see all this as a positive. Suffering always deepens the faith of the true followers of Christ. God never will forsake his own, no matter how dark the journey becomes. .
Amen, Bryan, Amen. Praise God! “For we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose…Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine or nakedness, or peril or sword…no created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Praise our Heavenly Father for His everlasting goodness! Praying for His good and perfect will to be done on 3-4/5. In Christ. Amen
Amen
Thank you Tina, Laurie, Lori Kris and other women who have shared their personal encounters with bob.
Bob takes great pleasure in belittling and degrading women. I have heard so many first hand stories of women who have been brutally verbally abused by bob in his office. Almost all of them with their husbands in the room. He would then turn to the husbands and go after them for not having control over their wives!
This attitude towards women begins with chuck smith, as he believes woman must be submissive unto their husbands especially in leadership roles.
In the late 80′s my husband and I were invited to the Pastor’s conference at CCCM. At one point in time Kay, chuck’s wife spoke to all the women. We were told that since God put our husbands in leadership roles that no matter what was going on in our lives, no matter how serious or devastating it was we were NEVER speak to anyone about it. Whenever we were attending a church event etc. we should always have a smile on our face and act as if our lives were full of blessings. As she spoke of this I began to feel sick to my stomach. Why would any woman come to us with their fears and problems if we seemed so perfect? In my opinion it would make them believe they weren’t good enough in God’s eyes! Then a year or so later I went to Gayle for counsel. It was made known to us that bob,Gayle, Susie and Greg Dowds believed God was going to use my husband in a great way. I had been getting ill and no one knew what was causing it, which led me to become fearful and depressed due to reasons in my past with my mom. I will never forget that day! I went to her house and opened up to her. She then began to remind me of a time she had been ill and not been able to come to church ( now I wonder if she really was ill). She then told me that she was going through something much worse, but could not talk about it. She told me that as wives of leaders in the church no matter what we were going through we should be quiet and pull up our bootstraps. She had seen men who God wanted to use in a great way be put up on a shelf because their wives couldn’t get it together and be submissive to their husbands. I sobbed all the way home feeling like it would completely be my fault if God did not use my husband!!!
It is my personal opinion that bob is a narcissist sociopath and possibly a psychopath who has a hatred for women.
I have such respect for all who speak the dark truth of their encounters with bob, especially the women. Much love and respect to my dear sisters and brothers in Christ who have taken off their masks and are silent no more…
Wow Janelle thanks for sharing that. For abuse to stop we must expose the abuse. I’m so sorry you experience such a thing and it is my oppinion that Gayle is and has been abused. Her behavior is not normal or healthy, in my opinion.
Take a minute today to reflect on the life of Jesus, and his various associations and friendships. It is plain as day that Jesus was a gentle and compassionate friend to the women in his life. I have no idea how we have degraded so far away from the way Jesus treated people. It makes me very upset to hear how men, called by God to serve Him and glorify the name of Jesus, treat people, and especially women and children, in the church. This is blasphemous behavior. There are far too many reports for all this to be a fabrication of lies to smear the ‘good’ reputation of a pastor. This behavior should not be tolerated in any context, whether at home, at work, in church, or in the community.
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I don’t know if this would be abuse or just the normal results of a person failing to stand up for herself or even worse her husband’s failure to stand up for her. Perhaps I am different but I am sure my wife would not tolerate any man or woman attempting to intimidate her and I would not tolerate any man attempting to intimidate my wife. As for his standing in the foyer mean-mugging, my wife and I would probably get a good laugh out of that–in the foyer, in front of him.
The actions this story describe are a pretty frequent occurrence in most work environments. You would be amazed at how often people in “leadership” attempt to intimidate those they supervise. I never practiced intimidation when in the management position and always laughed at those who attempted to intimidate me.
I am sure there are instances of sexual abuse and maybe even physical abuse in “churches” but a person who subjects themselves to harsh language and mean stares voluntarily probably should not be classed with those who endure physical and sexual abuse. America’s fixation with “bullying” seems to have bled into the church and become an excuse for not standing up and demanding that people treat you with dignity.
I appreciate your insight. It might not seem like a big deal to you but it was to me, because this was coming from my pastor who I loved and trusted. You are right, I should not have tollerated such disrespect and I certainly don’t now.
I guess you live and learn. I agree that my husband should have been more involved in that situation, but we can’t go back in time. I had already been at this church for about 15 years so my whole life was rapped up in it, all of my social life, and so was my kids. I guess all the years of brain washing, in my opinion, of “Don’t harm the church” “don’t cause waves”. I wanted to be a good Christian and do what was best for others and it was used against me. The purpose of me bringing this to the open really wasn’t to get simpathy, rather to expose spiritual abuse in the church. In addition to that, he was my employer and this is actually harrassment. In all my secular employement I have never been treated the way I was at CCV. But I completely agree and have learned the hard way.
The other thing I have done since then, is taught my kids how to identify a good church and an unhealth church. I have also taught my kids not tollerate any crap from pastors. They are just a man who teaches and nothing more. If he doesn’t know how to behave like a godly man, we hit the door. It’s also important to us that there is full financial disclosure at all times. If we don’t see it, we hit the door. If the pastor shows any signs of arrogance, mean spiritedness, or belittles others, we hit the door. We will never place ourselves in an unhealthy church ever again.
“probably should not be classed with those who endure physical and sexual abuse”
I wouldn’t say I am to be classed with those who endured physical or sexual abuse. I never said that and my heart goes out to all the Grenier boys who stated that they endured such things.
I met bob one time in 1988. I never went back. I remem
ber he ask me why i came?
I have read some of the comments on this story and I am both shocked and amazed at the statements made about the Pastor at Calvary Chapel. This is not the venue where these allegations should be broadcasted. We as Christians need to start applying God’s word. Whether you think you are telling the truth or you our outright telling a lie. Only God knows. However if we would only begin to put it in God’s hand and ask Him to sort it out and believe it to be so. Imagine if what some our saying is not actually the truth and your amens our not counted as the truth. You have committed an error as well. Do I feel hurt and pain for this whole situation. YES!!!!! However I will hold judgement for God to sort this out. May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter. If what the pastor has done is wrong God will judge him not you.
Norris – There is a biblical precedent for calling out wolves. I was shocked and amazed when I read the personal accounts of multitudes of witnesses. The Bible requires 2 witnesses. I read far more than 2 accounts. The witnesses have done things the biblical way, now the circle is broadening as the church leaders have failed to hold this pastor accountable.
If the pastor’s character is assassinated, it is by his own doing. He didn’t have to do the things that he did and no one needs to hide from the truth. It should be exposed.
I’m going to pretend that I didn’t read this comment from someone defending an abuser. Maybe when I wake up this will have been in my imagination. I hope so.
Julie Anne, concerning Norris Lee: Yes, we can put it in God’s hands to do justice for the oppressed. Indeed, it is in his hands. See Ps. 10-17-18. How does God effect justice for the oppressed, particularly with regard to powerful, untouchable, people? Sometimes he sends a prophet. As only one example, he sent Nathan the prophet to call out David’s crimes. We know that the ministry of prophets will be with us until the Body has achieved “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13, ESV). We know that some of these prophets are female. Acts 2:17, 21:9. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Matthew 5:6, ESV), but you will no doubt continue to draw criticism as you proceed to expose error, injustice and oppression. Still, “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:10). You are doing the Lord’s work. Keep it up.
Gary W. – Thank you so much for that. I almost missed it when I was going over the comments. I’m glad I didn’t.
Not your imagination Julie Anne. .
@ Norris Lee. . perhaps the best venue at this point for airing this insanity would be the major media outlets like CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. . Why? Because the church herself has failed to address and correct the Bob Grenier madness—and so the abuses continue continue continue continue unabated they continue.
There needs to be a WARNING written over the skies of Calvary Chapel Visalia that this so called “Christian Church” is a haunt headed up by a WOLF, a SNAKE, and a FALSE PASTOR. But somehow, Norris Lee, you want to silence the watchmen!
You say: Imagine if what some our saying is not actually the truth and your amens our not counted as the truth. You have committed an error as well.
Norris Lee, why don’t you imagine for a moment that these testimonies may actually just be the ugly truth! You know—that “Pastor” Bob Grenier sadistically abused his own sons! That he forced his five year old boy to perform oral sex on him! Don’t you think if someone’s gonna error on one side of the issue it would be in the support of the alleged victims and not the alleged Monster?
But please know, Norris Lee, these testimonies of abuses are not nebulous accusations that can’t be substantiated. I, myself, have talked to several men from CCV (at length on the phone) who have related to me the same patterned stories of abuses.
Norris Lee. How so very Chuck Smith of you to reiterate a most Satanic of lies: that “Only God knows. . . [and the right course of action for all of is] to put it in God’s hand and ask Him to sort it out and believe it to be so.” Bull Shit! Norris Lee—don’t be a fool!
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans… And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgement on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and the my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord (1 Cor 5:1-5).
The least you can do Norris Lee is mourn with those who have been abused and battered. .
Good words, monax. Where my words failed (and my brain didn’t want to go), the Body of Christ comes together and all parts work together fighting for His cause and justice for those of His who have been oppressed – the defenseless victims. Thank you, brother, for your fight in this battle.
Dear brother’s and sister’s. My apologies to those who I may have offended. I spoke out of line not knowing all the facts. I was addressing the fact that venom was being spued out all over the internet without adjudication. There’s been in history all kind of liars. So why not wait on God to avenge you. Christ was lied on, cheated, betrayed, accused and disrespected. However He left all judgement to His Father. The final word belongs to God the Father. Why not present your evidence and wait on the answer from God, in His time He will avenge you clearly. To me it just seem a better way to get your point across than to fall to the step of your adversary. To put statement like I heard. and then put them on the internet as facts seem to be erroneous. God said He will use all things to work to the good for those who love Him. Even this. Although there is a lot of hurt and pain associated with this issue. Don’t let that rise to the top, allow Christ love to come shining through. That is when God can receive the glory. I’m no expert on this situation, nor do I claim to be. However I’m always suppose to exhibit the love of Christ. I also would love to meet all of you in church. Tell me where to go. Love yours truly in-Christ Bro.Lee
Dear Bro. Lee,
The victims involved have followed Biblical models to try to get Grenier to stop the abuse and without success. Some of them went to the other CC churches and the leadership of the association, seeking correction of the situation, without success. They were spurned. Then some chose to become public about the matter, being prophets to the nation regarding the putrescent nature of the leadership of Grenier. The GRENIER filed suit. That made the who thing a matter of wide spread interest.
There were many places along the way for the people with the organizational influence or power to take the needed actions. But they refused. It is on their head, and well as Grenier’s that this has become so widely reported and discussed.
The sin in the life of Grenier, given his position, is a boil on the body of Christ. We can pray about it, and let the body suffer. Or we can take action, lance the boil, and let the healing begin. Posting on a blog is a form of lancing. And God will bless those who speak up for the abused, for the least among God’s children. And the punishment of the abuser will be severe, cf. a millstone around the neck.
Brother Lee,
You and I see things differently. I see God working through my blog and Alex’s blog (where you also posted) in bringing light to the darkness. These sins were once in darkness and hidden. Now they are exposed for all to see. God desires that truth be exposed. We are doing that.
I’ve had enough of this. to be honest I don’t even know how I got caught up in this. If your sounding an alarm well invite me to your church or are you just hiding behind some screen letting loose as you see fit. That position loses all faith with me. Sounds like the law to me. The Law of God could not save you it could only point out the weakness in you. You all are screaming a alarm however you are not pointing to where is the right fellowship. People hiding behind a screen. That’s a joke. When your ready to be real. Then speak with a loud voice.
Norris Lee – I’ve got my full name and picture all over the place. I’m not hiding a thing. I am not going to point people to the “right” fellowship. That is not my job. If you like, stay and ask questions about finding a healthy church – jump in on any thread. Read the Bible, ask God to direct you, talk to others who have good insight.
But if I see another comment in which you are telling me or others to stop posting about abusive pastors and let God take care of it, I will delete it. We’re done with that subject, you apologized, we need to move on from that.
Dear sister in Christ. May God continue to use you as He see fit. Only don’t shot there is a fire and not open the door for those to run out. See you in heaven, because these people are hiding behind screens.
Dear Norris, Brother in Christ,
Forgive me, if I am making the following assumption. It seems to me that you haven’t tasted abusive church practices. You haven’t been shamed into submission, or had the bible used as a whip to beat you down. I had that experience, and it almost destroyed my precious & tender love for our Lord Jesus Christ. Without blogs such as ssb & tww that bring to the light evil that is going on in some churches, naming some pastors who are wolves dressed as shepherds, without them, how could we understand that it wasn’t our fault that we didn’t measure up to the heavy load they placed on our shoulders. I am glad you haven’t been abused by a church leader, because it messes big time with your Trust in the Lord. And for the record, God is using SSB on my behalf and as He sees fit. My heart is grateful for J.A. and the people who comment here. There is a lot of love, wisdom, & mercy that flows here.
Julie Anne, I would like to cheerfully toss some things back at Bro. Lee. He asks were we go to church. For me, at least, church is wherever I gather with other Christians, including on this blog. I wonder where Bro. Lee attends church. He doesn’t volunteer the same information he requests of you and us. Does he attend a Calvary Chapel affiliated church?
Julie Anne, Bro. Lee admonishes to the effect that one who shouts fire should open a door of escape. I thank you that you have opened this blog and your heart as a door of escape to a safe haven for some, maybe many, who had been driven to the brink of despair by abusive pastors and churches. Bro. Lee, if you are reading this, you need only look at what is happening here. Julie Anne is truly one who laughs with those who laugh and weeps with those who weep. That’s Biblical you know. It’s healing you know.
Julie Anne, Bro. Lee is critical of you and us for hiding behind screens. I dare say he does so while hiding behind a screen. So, Bro. Lee, if you are still here, and assuming you are willing to come out from behind your screen,I have some questions for you: Who is Norris Lee? Is that your real name? How old are you? What do you do for a living? Where do you go to church? Where do you live? What email address may we use to communicate with you directly? Are you married? Do you have children? How old are they? What education, training and experience do you have to qualify you to counsel others that they should pray but remain silent while Jesus’ brothers and sister are being victimized? How did you come across this now-rather-dated blog article? Did somebody direct you to it? If so, who? You may not wish to disclose such information. I would not blame you. But if you are not willing to yourself do what you criticize others for not doing, then perhaps . . . Well, I’m thinking of the Golden Rule.
Dear Gary W. I have no problem answering all of your question. I have nothing to hide. My name is Norris Virgil Lee, I reside in Visalia, Calif. I was just paroled from state prison on 3-30-13 I went to jail for stealing a computer from Best Buy in Torrance, Calif in 1996, I paid seventeen years of my life for that crime. I am now saved and deliver from such acts by the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m 49 years old, I;m presently unemployed right now,I attended Calvary Chapel last week for the first time. I seen an officer who worked at the prison I was held at, when he seen me he came and gave me the biggest hug I have ever have expierence. MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS: norrislee50@comcast.net Yes I’m married, I have two children, two boys ages 24 & 25 I also am a pastor. Through my wife. I associate with Calvary Chapel because of the doctrine that hold to. Brother Gary I have nothing to hide – nor am I ashamed of who I am in-Christ. Nor will I hide behind a screen. how can you say that the fellowship is bad but don’t offer an alternative. God bless you Gary in His name.
Norris Lee, I’d like to invite you to read the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog that explains in detail what Pastor Bob Grenier is accused of. Look through the old files. Alex Grenier runs it. His brother Paul has posted on there at times in support of Alex, and I think one posting included a letter from Geoff, another step-son of Bob’s. 3 brothers and quite a few former CCV employees, long-time volunteers, attenders and more post there from time to time. It’s a lot of people who all agree with what they saw/experienced with Bob over the years.
I’m really happy for you having received your freedom and wish the best for you and your family in this new chapter of life. It’s only fair that we warn you of the problems at CCV so you won’t be caught off guard. Some have been destroyed by what they experienced with Bob there. In Mt. 18 it tells us to warn the church about the unrepentant … so we do.
Katie and readers: Just an FYI – Norris has been interacting on the Calvary Chapel Abuse site as well as here. You can find his comment here.
Thanks, Julie.
Norris, you say you were just released from prison and that you are a pastor. Could you explain how you are a pastor so soon? I’m just trying to understand your context.
Norris Lee,
You are a living testimony to the saving power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah. May He continue to prosper your soul. If you can hear it from somebody who chooses to continue to, as you say, hide behind a screen, I encourage you to be very careful to look up to only Jesus, and through Him to our heavenly Father.
I have come to understand that, as children, we need to be affirmed by our fathers. If our father’s do not fully affirm us, we are prone to look to authority figures, as a kind of replacement fathers, for affirmation. Your description of being embraced by your former prison officer is very touching, but I would, as gently as is possible, encourage you to be careful that you are not drawn to this guard, or to Bob Grenier, or any other human, for affirmation–affirmation that, maybe, you did not adequately receive from your earthly father. We are to look to no man on earth as a father, for we have only one Father, who is in Heaven. Matthew 23:9. Nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus, and only Jesus. John 14:6.
You seem to be asking what church we suggest for you in place of Calvary Chapel. Even if I lived close enough to you to be able to make suggestions, maybe I would be reluctant to do so. You see, I think the better question is, “where can we find Jesus?” We actually have the opportunity to minister to him, directly. If you will feed the hungry you will be feeding Jesus Himself. Likewise, if you give drink to the thirsty, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick and visit prisoners, you will be ministering to Jesus himself. Matthew 25:35-40. Take a look at Isaiah 58, and especially what the prophet speaks about undoing the straps of the yoke to let the oppressed go free. That is what this blog is all about, at least as I see it. These things, I suggest, are what your calling, any person’s calling, as a pastor must be all about. In doing such things as these, you will find Jesus. Indeed, you will be, as has been said, Jesus with skin on.
Gary W. – - Such a beautiful response to Norris. You have a way with words, I tell you!
Norris, thank you for your honesty. I am so happy that you chose to go to church on your first day out of prison and that you are following Christ now and seeking Christian fellowship. I am somewhat familiar with Gateway, Parkside Chapel, and Grace Community in Visalia and would recommend any of those for you to visit. But I would advise against returning to Calvary Chapel Visalia. Bob has some serious criminal allegations against him, so much that he was asked to step down as Police Chaplain. The judge in Bob’s defamation case against Alex even said that the allegations against Bob are appalling. CCV and CC at large have grossly failed to report physical and sexual child abuse, harassment claims, and financial dishonesty. Whether or not you agree with the methods by which these things have been exposed, I hope this information will help you carefully choose where you want to take your family. May you experience God’s love more and more every day.
Thank you, A Sister, for giving Norris other suggestions on churches in the area. I concur with you that Grenier has too much negative history coming from multitudes of witnesses. It would be much safer to go to a place with a pastor who doesn’t have such a reputation, but has a reputation of being a humble servant with his flock.
I agree with A Sister and Julie Anne. When there are 2 or 3 witnesses, an accusation against an elder/pastor can be received. In this case, there are tons of first person testimony of grievous acts of sexual, physical, emotional and spiritual abuse, along with financial improprieties, as well as anger and control issues.
All that and he is a “Moses Model” pastor which means he has all the control and no accountability.
At a minimum I would not give money to anyone who won’t provide a yearly financial report, answer questions about the finances freely, or have accountability built into the church government structure. Bob won’t and doesn’t.
Norris, we are warning you and others out of obedience to Mt. 18 that tells us to do so, and out of love for our brothers and sisters in Christ who would not otherwise know if we did not speak up.
Hello Katie, Just to answer your question. I am an ordained minister, I lead ” The Lord House of Prayer in Norwalk, Calif. up into 1996 When I disobeyed God and was placed into prison. I truly have grown leaps and bounds since that time. I subscribe to the very doctrine that Calvary Chapel teaches. I believe in the grace of God and the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it’s the job of the Holy Spirit to maintain that which Christ has started, until the day of redemption. I must attend a church with that type of teaching. I don’t believe we can earn our salvation nor can we work for it. That teaching is prevalent today in churches. Not to get to theological I will check out some of what you offered. God bless and may he richly provide for you and yours. love bro. Lee in-Christ
Norris Lee I believe you are street smart and I believe you will do your homework. Also check out Neighborhood. I’ m sure you have seen all kinds of deception in prison, don’t be so foolish to think it can’t happen in church. I have read your comments and I believe your heart seeks to know the truth. God bless.
Norris Lee
You write – @ APRIL 3, 2013 @ 12:31 PM
“May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter.”
Then you write – @ APRIL 4, 2013 @ 10:17 PM…
“I also am a pastor.”
Was wondering…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?
Or, is that “Title,” A Commandment of Men? A Doctrine of Men? A Tradition of Men? That we are warned about by Jesus?
Mark 7:13 KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
Mark 7:13 ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
Mark 7:13 NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Have you done your own study, research, on pastors? I mean in the Bible?
What does the Bible say about pastors? Makes an interesting study.
Here are some questions to ask as you check out pastor/leader/reverends.
In the Bible…
How many of His Disciples are called – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples have the “Title” – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples call another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples are – Hired, or Fired – as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
And – In the Bible – Which congregations are “led” by a pastor/leader/reverend?
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Hello brothers and sisters. I greet you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Well A. Amos Love writes are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today. Who gave these people the right to call them that. One thing I’ve learned in Christ is to establish a true premise in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore wrong premise, wrong answer. This is Mr Love position, when interpreting God’s word we must stand on it in it’s context. Yes there are pastor in the church today. According to (eph 4:11) and verse 12 tells us what they are to do. When you read scripture you must, and I mean must consider all other applying scripture which will solidify your text, For example The word Bishop can be found to be an overseer or an elder. Scripture to look at cf acts 20:28, phil 1:1, 1tim 3:2, tit 1:7, 1pet 2:25. We are told that elders are to oversee what God has establish. Scripture to look at, acts 20:28 & 1pet5:1-2. God uses the word Presbytery this also is an elder. The bible tells us there will be an Bishop in every local church acts 14:23. God has establish order in His church through the apostles and prophets they have laid the foundation. (eph 2:20) Now we have three offices where men are placed, that is Evangelist, Pastor and Teachers. According to 1cor 3:10 Apostle Paul say he was a master builder and he laid the foundation of Christ. Now men build on that. (Evangelist, Pastor and Teachers) Now we have to watch how we build on that foundation, because if you’re a false teacher then your work will be burned at the day of Christ. As I write this it is funny to me, because it seems to me Mr Love has a problem submitting. Same problem that the Corinthians church was exhibiting in 1cor 1:12-13. I am a true believer in scripture when it is deciphered in context. For example if I read acts 15:1, I can say, we need to be circumcised in order to be saved. that would be wrong, because if I read the whole scripture it teaches that Paul and Barnabas were disputing that with all there heart. Well i could go on and on, however I will closed with that. One thing I can say for sure Mr. Love is I love to dialect about the word of God. Amen for that.
Norris – Congratulations on opening a huge can of worms. Pull up a seat. You might be here for a while
LOL
Julie Anne
HaHaHaHaHa – Are you calling me a “Wind Bag?”
Only my friends can call me “Wind Bagamus.”
Norris Lee
Don’t know if you realize it or NOT – But…
1 – You did NOT answer the questions asked.
2 – You misquoted what I asked and said. But – that’s okay – I’m kinda used to it.
You write…
“Well A. Amos Love writes are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today.”
Well – That is NOT what was written – The first question was…
“Was wondering…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?”
The question was NOT what you write…
“are there pastor/leaders/reverend in the church today.”
The question was…
Todays “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?” Is this a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures?”
These questions only requires a – YES – Or – NO – Answer.
YES – That “Title/Position” is found in the scriptures.
NO – That “Title/Position” is NOT found in the scriptures.
And if the answer is YES – And this is a “Title/Position” found in the scriptures???
Please, show me in the Bible, one of His Disciples called – pastor/leader/reverend.
And you answer with a verse I’m familiar with – Eph 4:11. Which reads in the KJV…
“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;”
Now – pastors here is plural – and NOT a “Title” – That I asked about.
What I was questioning was the “Title/Postion” – pastor/leader/reverend.
NOT whether the word pastor is in the Bible.
Seems His Disciples were NOT interested in having that “Title/Position”
Because when I search the scriptures I find NO one called – pastor/leader/reverend.
And – the only one I find with the “Title” Shepherd/Leader/Reverend – Is Jesus.
…the Shepherd and Bisop of your soul. 1 Pet 2:25 KJV
Do NOT be called leader – for you have “ONE” leader – Jesus. Mat 23:10 NASB.
Holy and reverend is His Name – Ps 111:9 KJV.
And – Instead of answering the question you went off in another direction…
Talking about – Elders – Bishops – Overseers – which is also a favorite topic. Maybe we can get into Elder/Overseers. Those are tough qualificatios in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
I would love to know if you qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer.
And – (You might NOT realize it) – You used a typical response used by
“Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to “Exercizing Authority”
When you tried to marginialize me and cause those questions to sound insignificant because they were coming from someone who “has a problem submitting.”
Because you write…
“As I write this it is funny to me,
because it seems to me Mr Love has a problem submitting.”
Well, with out knowing me – you “assassinate my character as if it does not matter.”
It’s okay, I’m kinda used to it.
Could you please answer the questions.
In the Bible…
How many of His Disciples are called – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples have the “Title” – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples call another Disciple – pastor/leader/reverend?
How many of His Disciples are – Hired, or Fired – as a – pastor/leader/reverend?
And – In the Bible – Which congregations are “led” by a pastor/leader/reverend?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Trust me, Amos, I wasn’t only referring to you. This topic seems to come up quite a bit.
Regrettably it appears brother Lee only wants to be heard. An admitted thief, claiming to be a pastor, is no sooner out on parole than he is on the Internet lecturing everybody on how to read the Bible, among other things. Frankly, I would want to see the fruit of righteousness in his life (feeding the hungry, taking care of widows and orphans, etc.) before I am willing to pay too much attention to anything he has to say.
While I expect that any attempt at a detailed response to brother Lee’s previous post would be useless, I cannot resist the temptation to point out that the passage on which he relies for the proposition that “there will be an [sic] Bishop in every local church” actually speaks of elders, plural, as in more than one elder. Well, I fear that last sentence was wasted–at least insofar any attempt to speak to brother Lee is concerned.
Still, Brother Lee appears to be a good illustration of something I have noticed about the manner in which people who call themselves pastors will often attempt to impose their views. If I point out that the “pastor” is promoting a position that is inconsistent with Scripture, they will simply say that I am taking Scripture out of context. End of conversation, no further explanations required. However, if I go to the effort to actually explain the manner in which a “pastor” is taking Scripture out of context, I am failing to acknowledge the Bible as the inspired, inerrant and authoritative Word of God.
So, in trying to decide who has the better understanding of Scripture in full context, am I more persuaded by brother Amos or by brother Lee? Let me see . . . I do believe I will go with the insight of the brother whose focus is on
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Julie Anne
We are really tracking together often.
I saw the comment by Norris when it was first published at 10:10.
I was writing the response till I posted it – And I shortened it quite a bit.
A can of worms – Indeed
Gary W
That’s the nicest compliment – Thanks
“I do believe I will go with the insight of the brother whose focus is on
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}”
Oh Lord – that my eye would remain single.
A. Amos,
Please let me expand on the compliment. I have been greatly encouraged just to know that there is somebody out there with whom I can identify on matters relating to ecclesiolatry, er, I mean ecclesiology. For me the journey began when I went to look up the Greek word for office, as in the office of overseer–and discovered that there is no such word in the Greek New Testament!
Plus, there is this. I have begun to steal your stuff. Leaving church, turning to Jesus. Pray, pay, stay and obey.
A hearty thank you!
Gary W
Yup…
“there will be an [sic] Bishop in every local church”
actually speaks of elders, plural, as in more than one elder.”
And Just where is “Local Church” found in the scriptures??? Hmmm?
Does anyone know what the word ”church” refers to?
In the Bible…
Did anyone ever “Go to Church? Join a Church? Tithe to a Church? Lead a Church? Attend a Church? Give silver, gold, or money to a Church? Pastor a Church? Plant a Church?
And – Yup – Again – I’ve noticed this also…
“if I go to the effort to actually explain the manner in which a “pastor” is taking Scripture out of context, I am failing to acknowledge the Bible as the inspired, inerrant and authoritative Word of God.”
What pastors really mean when they cut you off is…
Do NOT try to confuse me with the Scriptures – My mind is made up.
And like Norris Lee – Pastors do NOT like to answer the tough questions.
Or believe they have to meet the qualifications in 1 tim 3 and Titus.
And another pet peeve is – Are we just allowed to “add words” to the Bible? – Comp – Egal – Calvinist – Armenian – Conservative – Liberal – Baptist – Lutheran – Evangelical – Charismatic – Clergy – Laity – and the list goes on and on and…
These “Titles” are a distraction – And they divide the body of Christ.
And they take you eyes off of Jesus – And put them on – “Mere Fallible Humans.”
And “Titles” for humans NOT in the Bible – Can we “add them” to the scriptures?
Senior pastor – Lead Pastor – Executive Pastor – Youth Pastor – Singles Pastor – Reverend – Holy Reverend – Most Holy Reverend – Rector – Canon – ArchDeacon – Prelate – Doctor – M. Div. – Cardinal – Pope – and on, and on, and…
Titles, Titles, every where – Except in the Bible. My… My… Tsk… Tsk…
Can’t we just use, or refer to, what is written?
Why isn’t the Bible good enough?
Hallelujah, brothers and sisters, I will pull up my chair and converse with you. I have no problem sharing the word of God in true context. I apologize if I misunderstood your question. So let’s try to answer your question again. Is there a title of pastor, leader or reverend in the bible. Yes, a resounding Yes for Pastor, however I would say no for the other two. Poimen in the Greek translate both Pastor and Shepard, Archipoimen translate Chief Shepard only to be applied to Jesus. So we see that Christ is the Head of the church, however He has place men to lead the church in the capacity of pastors. cf jn 10:16, 1pet 2:25 also Heb 13:20 applies to Christ, Eph 4:11 applies to man. In 1tim 3:1 I have heard the argument that there is no greek word that represent the word office, however if there is an office for a deacon, then there would have to be an office for a bishop in every church. Just as God has establish God, man, woman and child. He has established order in the church. Bishop/Pastor, Teacher, Elders and Presbytery. Now were any of the Disciples called any of these terms. Absolutely no, However why would it be qualification of said office if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon. The Disciple/Apostle that were their title, the others were also called apostle but not in the true sense of the meaning, the word translate messenger when applied to those who were disciple by the Apostle. I don’t believe I assassinated your charater I only stated ” your position was wrong” if I must I apologize for that. However I do love to share and learn the word of God. God bless you brother.
Dear Gary W. I wish not to get into a cat fight with you. However you ask me to share some information with you(and I did) and the next thing you do is use it against me. Gary what are you , since your not an admitted thief. Are you without sin. Brother I not only stole, I cheated and lied and a host of other things.That’s why I’m so thankful for Jesus Christ. He delivered me from such behavior. I now worship him in the beauty of holiness. I don’t sling mud nor will I use information given to me to slander someone. One thing for sure that Christ has done for me is to love my fellow man whether he is christian or not. If he is christian I’m in fellowship with him, if not I’m trying to get him into fellowship with me. So Gary I’m going to count you as a brother who wants to learn how to love.
Amos,
You ask, “Does anyone know what the word ”church” refers to?”
If you take a look at dictionary.com you will discover that the word church is ultimately derived from the Greek word kurios, which we translate lord. In oh-so-how-many ways can we become so devoted to what we call falsely call church that it becomes our de facto lord? Lots of time and money for “church,” no time or money for Jesus or for those who are “the least of these.” True confession: I convict myself.
To be fair, the dictionary etymologies indicate that the historical use of kurios and its derivatives had reference, if only by inference, to the Lord’s house. Even so, this draws attention to the building called church, whereas we, his children, are His true body and temple. Impressive as they are, how many centuries worth of individual lives were dedicated to the building of the great European cathedrals? How many billions of dollars do we continue to pour into “church” buildings? If only these lives and billions of dollars had been and were being dedicated to our Lord rather than to the building monuments of and to men? How many orphans and widows could have been fed? How many more souls could have been won? How many more lives could actually been transformed into the image of Jesus? How many fewer might be living and dying in despair? And on, and on.
On a couple of occasions I lobbied for the “church” I then attended to do a better job of feeding the poor and healing the broken hearted, etc., On at least those occasions the “pastors” reminded me that, well, the church consists of individual Christians–but only as if to say, don’t be pointing fingers at us “pastors” or at the organizations we promote. These conservations sort of tended to die, and the silence sort of tended to become awkward, when I responded to the effect that, “No, no, the church I am urging on to greater works is the organization that calls itself church and to which the “pastors” demand that I fork over a tenth of my gross income.”
Brother Lee, It is not the fact that you are a convicted thief that I hold against you. You have done your time behind bars, and continue to do time on parole. What I would hold you accountable for is the fact the mere days after you are paroled you dare to come on this blog to lecture and purport to teach. You claim to have been transformed by our Lord, and Halleluiah to that! But you reject the sound advice of loving hearts that would not see you fall into a trap. You call yourself a pastor, but apparently would only teach, not serve. No, if you wish to teach, if you wish for me, at least, to pay attention to you, it will be necessary for you to prove by your actions that you know how to care for Jesus’ children–and not just preach at them. Indeed, you must now earn credibility by actually DEMONSTRATING that you are living a transformed life, and it will most likely take years, not mere days, to do so. To my mind your burden is made heavier by the disclosure that you called yourself a pastor at the time of your crime. My initial impression was that you had become a Christian and pastor while incarcerated. That seemed to me to be in your favor. Frankly, where you had been a pastor at the time of your offense, I am not so ready to rely on your present claims to the title.
As for what I do for a living, I have mentioned it a couple times on this blog when I deemed it useful by way of explaining whence I had derived a particular insight. If you pay attention I may do it again.
By the way, In the state I live in, I do not think you would have received 17 years on a first offense, even for stealing something that was likely worth several thousand dollars. Is it possible that your theft of a computer was not your first offense? I ask only because I suspect you have not been completely up front with us, and I would like to give you a chance to clarify the matter.
Hello Gary, So I see now you are the speaker for this blog. As I said before I was no saint. However now I’m under the blood of Christ, regardless of how you feel about it. As for as demonstrating you don’t know me. You don’t have a clue about what I’m doing for God through His Spirit. One thing for sure I don’t stand in judgement of you are any body else. When I said what is your sin. I was not speaking of what you do for a living, I meant are you sinless, because Christ came for sinners, not the righteous. Gary I am not on parole at all for your information. I can go as I please, because that is how Christ does it. Gary whoever you are go and find out how to love and not stand in judgement and hide behind this screen. Go read 1Cor 13- 1-8 , because your not DEMONSTRATING that. Love Norris Lee a CHRISTIAN.
Norris – What do you mean that Gary is the speaker for this blog? You have the floor just as much as he.
In his 10:17 p.m. post of 4/4, Norris Lee says “I was just paroled from state prison.” In his most recent post he says, “Gary I am not on parole at all for your information.” Huh?
Information regarding the filing of various federal lawsuits by one Norris Lee, California Prisoner, can be found here:
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/caedce/1:2002cv05037/9701/139/
It appears the suits were filed against various government officials, although I have not reviewed the available documents in sufficient detail to say for sure.
Norris, were these lawsuits filed by you? Should we be concerned that you are just one more pastor who may file a lawsuit against people who say things you don’t like?
Well I see you are a cyber bully Gary W. I’m in no way intimidated by you. I’ve spoken nothing but the truth on this blog. So you gather information so you can use it against people, show me in scripture where that’s applicable. Gary finds someone else to play with. If you want to talk scripture I will, if you want to know more about me just ask. I have nothing to hide. Just because you know how to use the computer does not bring me to my knees. I was discharged from prison on 3-30-13. You should have known that with your mouse. My cdc# was k-22168. Just ask Gary, just ask. With that being said who are you and what are you hiding.if you want I will give you my home number just e-mail at my e-mail address. Love brother Lee.
Norris, since you invite me to ask if there is more I want to know about you, I will repeat a question you have left unanswered. Is my suspicion correct that your conviction for stealing a computer was not a first offense? If there were other offenses, what and when were they? And, more to the point, were you acting as a pastor when these other offenses, if any, were committed? You come here lecturing and teaching. You would have us accept you as one who is qualified to act as a pastor, as someone, even, that we ought to pay attention to and be taught by.
A bishop must be above reproach. 1 Tim. 3:2. I think I am entitled to inquire into your background so that I can test your current maturity and qualifications to undertake what you are attempting to do in this blog space. “. . . [T]est everything; hold fast what is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21, ESV). I applaud you for your forthrightness in answering (most) of my questions. However, if you cannot see the need to satisfy legitimate concerns, given your background, methinks we must needs be wary.
Norris Lee
You write…
“I do love to share and learn the word of God.”
That is why I ask you these difficult questions for those who think they are pastors. So you can go to Jesus, The Word of God, and the Bible, to compare what they’ve been taught with what is in the Bible.
Isn’t the Bible our standard?
And – You still did NOT answer the questions asked. With scripture verses.
You kinda tried, you started to, but left it a little short. I’ll try to be a little more clear.
You write…
“ Is there a title of pastor, leader or reverend in the bible.
Yes, a resounding Yes for Pastor,”
But – Where is this “Title” pastor? – In the Bible?
“So we see that Christ is the Head of the church, however He has place men
to lead the church in the capacity of pastors.”
And – Where is this in the Bible? Pastors leading churches?
If your statements are accurate? If your statements reflect what is in the Bible?
Then you should be able *To Name* at least one of His Disciples who had the “Title” pastor and was leading a church. And the Bible verses that show that – Yes?
So I’ll re-state the questions that, in my experience, most who want to be known as pastors, tend to “Ignore” or “Twist” so they can hold on to their – Power – Profit – Prestige. See, for me, “Titles” are ALL about – Power. Those with the “Titles” have – The Power. The Power – to control and manipulate. And we know from experience that “Power Corrupts” even the best intentioned humans.
In the Bible – The only one I can find, called Shepherd, or has that “Title” – Is Jesus.
But – I cudda missed it.
So I’m asking for help. Giving you a chance “to share and learn the word of God.”
But – I’m NO longer interested in the opinions of men – the Commandments of Men – the Doctrines of Men – or the “Traditions of Men” – That I was taught in “the Corrupt Religious System” run by “Pastors who Abuse” – “Pastors addicted to Exerciing Authority.” I would like to be able to read the scripture verses for myself and ask Jesus what they mean for me.
So Norris – Please – From the Bible – chapter and verse…
1 – Please – name one of His Disciples who was called – pastor or shepherd.
2 – Please – name one of His Disciples who called them self – pastor. – Like you did.
3 – Please – name one of His Disciples who had the “Title” – pastor or shepherd.
4 – Please – name one of His Disciples who was Hired, or Fired as a pastor or shepherd.
5 – Please – name one congregation, one town, one church, “Led” by a pastor.
Norris – If NOT one of His Disciples, in the Bible, called them self pastor?
Why do you?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
Norris Lee
You write…
“However why would it be qualification of said office
if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon.”
Norris – Have you ever wondered? Why?
Paul gives such tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9,
for Pastor/Elder/Overseer if NOT important? For something? For some purpose?
Can we dismiss them all? How many are NOT important?
Which ones are NOT important?
Norris – Do you meet ALL the qualifications for Pastor/Elder/Overseer???
Hello Bro. Amos, The answer to your question is a resounding none. Why do I called myself a pastor, because it’s my calling. None of the disciples called themselves teachers, However the bible says there shall be teachers. None of them call themselves evangelists, however we have evangelist. So what’s the point? And I know you have a point. Can’t wait to hear it.
Hello Gary W. I have had a busy day. However I will share some of my time with you. Gary you have not answered none of my question yet. Yet you want me to disclose all of my information which I have no problem doing, however you have to give me something to work with so I can let my mouse do some walking. No fun with you having all the information. If you want I will type my testimony later. God bless you Gary W.
Norris, you specifically said to me, “if you want to know more about me just ask.” You expressed no conditions. I asked. You aren’t answering. It would be good if you would keep your word.
Bro. Gary W. You have shown to be deceptive with your tactic when I dispense information to you. You have already used it in a negative way already. If what you want to do is smear my name because of my past. I don’t want to play that game. If your asking for legitimate reason, yes I have no problem with that. Love Bro. Lee
Norris
Thank you for answering the five questions and your correct answer. You write…
“The answer to your question is a resounding none.”
Congratulations – I’ve NOT met many, who have the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend, who are willing to admit that the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend does NOT exist in the Bible. And – In the Bible, there is NOT one church “Led” by a pastor/leader/reverend.
You also answer another question I ask often…
“Norris – If NOT one of His Disciples, in the Bible, called them self pastor?
Why do you?”
And your answer…
“Why do I called myself a pastor, because it’s my calling.”
Which causes me to ask another question…
How do you know – “I call myself pastor, because it’s my calling.” When, in the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples was “called” to have the “Title” pastor, leading a church? Shouldn’t *your calling* be verified, at least once, in the Bible?
And I agree when you write…
“None of the disciples called themselves teachers,”
“None of them call themselves evangelists,”
Isn’t this a clue? We’re NOT to call attention to ourselves by taking “Titles?” Aren’t we supposed to be pointing folks to Jesus? – The “ONE” Shepherd? – The “ONE” Teacher? – The “ONE” Leader?
And NOT taking the “Name” of the Lord thy God in “Vain.” Ex 20:7
(Name = authority, character.) (Vain = idolatry, uselessness.)
NOT taking the name (authority, character) of the Lord in vain (idolatry, uselessness.)
And then you ask – “So what’s the point?”
Maybe you can ask Jesus “the Point?” Because- the Bible says in Jer 50:6 KJV
My people have been lost sheep – “Their shepherds” have led them astray.
Seems that’s what “Mere Fallible Human” shepherds do when they take the name (authority, character) of the Lord in vain (idolatry, uselessness.).
These humans, who take God’s name, Shepherd, in vain, lead God’s Sheep astray.
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
And – Norris Lee
You mention qualification for Bishop, Deacon @ – APRIL 6, 2013 @ 1:57 PM…
“However why would it be qualification of said office
if that person does not exist. Bishop or Deacon.”
Norris – Can you answer another question – Please…
Do you meet ALL the qualifications in, 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, for…
Pastor/Elder/Overseer???
Hello Bro. Amos and God bless you. Yes I do positionally. However practically I’m striving every day to reach that goal (Heb 10:10-14). It. is because of Christ I can do all things in His name.
Bro. Amos, I believe you’ve taken the word vain out of context when it applies to specific titles in the scripture. How do you explain (Eph 4:11) and it’s five (5) offices? The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it would’nt have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point when some things are omitted, such as you claim about the disciples not claiming any title or other names.
Norris Lee
NOT sure I understand? Is that…
YES – You do meet ALL the qualifications?
Or, NO – You do NOT meet the qualifications?
Norris Lee
Thanks for reminding me when you say – “I can do all things in His name.”
And I forgot theses verses – You’re probably correct when you say…
“The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it wouldn’t have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point **when some things are omitted,**”
I’ll have to go apologize to a friend of mine who I had a dis-agreement with the other day. We were talking about how His Disciples would speak and in one day 5,000 believed. And another day His Disciples spoke and 3,000 souls were added to them. And when he gave his answer – I just blew him off as someone who drank the kool-aide. Someone who was deceived and having delusions. I’m glad I didn’t tell him he was deceived and having delusions even though I was thinking it.
Well, I was wondering, and asked my friend…
“How did His Disciples draw such big crowds? – Just to hear about Jesus?”
And my friend said…
“Oh, they just did what Jesus did when he preached.”
I asked, “What was that?”
And my friend said…
“Well Jesus, when he wanted to get a crowd…
He would just stand there – And have a bunch of monkeys flying out of His ears…
He would have monkeys every where – And the word would spread…”
I questioned saying – “Jesus had monkeys flying out of His ears???”
And – His Disciples had monkeys flying out of their ears???”
I said – “That’s kind of hard for me to believe His Disciples did that.
Is that in the Bible???” His Disciples having monkeys flying out of their ears?”
And my friend said…
“The Disciples believed- they “can do all things in His name.”
But, I asked, “Where in the Bible does it say Jesus had monkeys flying out of His ears?
And my friend said…
““The bible say if all the things that Jesus did or perform were written it wouldn’t have enough books in the world to contain them. So what’s your point **when some things are omitted,**”
It’s kind of hard to argue with that – “Revelation” – It doesn’t have to be in the Bible.
Hello Bro. Amos, great point. However how does (eph 4:11) applies to your theory. Do you know about positional & progressive doctrine? One is when God has already completed His work in you (positional), the other is the one you work out daily (practical).
Norris Lee
Hmmm? You write…
God has already completed His work in you (positional),
So, are you saying, when I ask you – Do you meet ALL the qualifications?
And you answer – “Yes I do positionally.”
That means that Today – You do NOT meet the qualifications? – Yes?
But – One day in the future – You will meet the qualifications?
Will that be in this Life? Or, will that be in the next life?
Or, Are you saying – “God has already completed His work in ALL of us (positional),
And now, we ALL, Every Believer, Qualifies to be a pastor/elder/overseer.
So, Now, we are ALL one in Christ, ALL are shepherds/pastors – ( Positionally)
ALL are Elders, ALL are Overseers, ALL are Teachers, ALL are leaders.
(Positionally)???
And, is any of this stuff? Anywhere, in the Bible?
When Paul tells Timothy or Titus to go and “Ordain Elders in every City”
“If any be blameless” – For a Bishop “Must Be” Blameless..
That Paul did NOT mean an Overseer had to be Blameless? – NOW?
When being ordained?
And, an overseer “Must Be” Blameless – really meant – For some future time?
So, which is it?
We ALL qualify to be pastor/elder/overseers? NOW? And we are ALL equal?
Or, Paul did NOT really mean – “For an Overseer Must Be Blameless?” Today?
It’s starting to smell like a lot of monkeys are starting to gather.
Norris,
You may be positioned in Christ, but if you are wanting to be recognized as a pastor/elder/bishop, then I at least am going to be concerned about how much progress (i.e. progressive sanctification) you have attained in Christ. And frankly, I am having a lot of difficulty with the way your are refusing to come clean regarding the circumstances of your 17 year incarceration. Sure enough, I was correct to suspect that you were not sentenced to 17 years in prison solely for stealing a computer, per you statement. The penalty for grand theft in California is 1 year in the county jail, or else 16 months, 2 years, or 3 years in the state prison. At lest that’s what it says if you follow the links at this California law firm web site:
http://www.shouselaw.com/grand-theft.html
I may or may not be real concerned about what happened 17 years ago, depending on what, exactly it was. What I am definitely concerned about, however, is your PRESENT level of spiritual maturity, which I deem to require utmost honesty and forthrightness regarding the circumstances of your incarceration. In this regard it appears that we need to be concerned as of right now, today, this instant, that you made only a partial disclosure regarding the circumstances of your incarceration, and that you are refusing to provide further information when asked. Further, the fact that you appear to have spent the last years of your incarceration filing several lawsuits against various and sundry people does not help me to trust you, either with regard to your testimony or with regard to disclosing my identity to you.
Hello Gary W. I have been forthright about who I am, with you. You have yet to disclose anything to me about you. Who are you? Where do you live? What is your e-mail address? Gary stop being a bully. I’m not scared of you if you want to dialect, then respond to some of my wishes, if not we don’t have to continue this conversation. Love in-Christ.
Bro. Amos these qualification, can be counted for all christians. We are all called to be holy and sanctified. However the scriptures say are all Apostles, are all prophets,are all teacher…… (1cor.12:29-31) When I say positional, It’s what God has done through His Son, through the work of the cross. However sometimes we don’t look the part. (practically) After you got saved have you made a mistake? if, yes you are working out your salvation through sanctification. With God he see you as the finish product. I’m sure I’m speaking to the choir.
You have defended and appear to have taken up with a pastor who is suing his own stepson. One of the allegations in that suit, as I understand it, is that the stepson is some sort of cyberbully. Now you persist in calling me a bully and cyberbully. You have sued others. I am concerned you are attempting to set me up for a lawsuit. I do not trust you. I agree with you on this one point: Your conversation with me is over.
Who are you to be sued? Thank you Jesus for the end of this. signing off for life with you. (smile)
Well that sure was interesting… Yikes. I was cheering for Gary & Amos. ( ;
So any guesses on who is going to win the final 2 tonight? paging Monex. Sorry, if it seems I am making light of this conversation. Whew, it sure was eye opening.
hey there Sacred Gail. . i’ve been reading along. . actually, i understand where Norris is coming from. . he probably did a lot of pastoring in prison. . he didn’t need ordained by man to do this. . but i suspect he was gifted and called of God to do so. . i bet he had a lot of time to imbibe the Word of God in prison too. .
i had a lot of personal thoughts i would have liked to have shared, but i’ve been crushed with work and life issues. so i just followed this thread’s back and forth between our brothers via email updates.
well, i never thought Michigan would have gone to the big dance! of course, we’re backing the BLUE! but Louisville is favored by 4. i’m breaking a fast today around tip time. so i’m presently hungry . and can’t wait to watch some good basketball with my best girlfriend!
Gail, send me an email. . you can find my gmail via me gravatar profile. thnx, David
oops… me gravatar doesn’t show up here. .
my gmail is discerningspiritualabuse
Will do Monax!
One sad thing I felt while following this conversation was that Norris couldn’t hear all the voices here that cared for his soul by warning him that spiritual abusers exist.
I pray he doesn’t learn about it the hard way, i wouldn’t wish that heartbreak on anyone.
Hello Gail and monax, I’m just disconnecting with Gary W. I’m still going to dialect with Bro. Amos, Gary was being unfair in all the questioning. I am an open book. I am a valid ordained minister. I have my certificate to show you. This started out by me saying, I would’nt have used this vehicle for that purpose. Then I was called a convicted thief and so on. I have no problem sharing who I am and what I stand for. No I did’nt imbibe the word of God in prison. lol
Norris Lee, are you telling me you did not spend your time drinking from the Holy Scriptures? How did you sustain yourself? I am interested in your testimony.
I have a pastor friend here in Pittsburgh who spent some time in jail. I know a lot of brothers-in-Christ who when in prison filled their time with reading and studying Scripture.
And btw, your having a certificate to show that you’re a valid ordained minister makes you suspect in my book. No offense—but a piece of paper validates or qualifies no one for or from ministry. . but i do, nevertheless, recognize you as a Spirit-filled minister of Jesus Christ.
David
Hello Bro. Monax (clever name) I was’nt putting stock in the paper work, it just says I put in the hours of much studying. When I said I was’nt imbibing in prison, I meant that’s is not where I started. Yes after doing seventeen years it is what sustained me. I don’t know what btw means. Right now I’m spending time with my family who waited for me those seventeen years. My plan is to give my wife the first year (she calls it my first ministry), then I hope to get into ministry full time. However I will witness every chance I get. Maybe tomorrow I will type my testimony so you can read it. As I told bro. Gary I will be an open book. I have nothing to hide. Love your brother in -Christ. I also am watching the game. Go cardinals
Norris Lee- BTWt means: By the way, as a matter of internet speak or text lingo.
I asked you earlier in my long winded way the following: Did you read this?
“Dear Norris, Brother in Christ,
Forgive me, if I am making the following assumption: It seems to me that you haven’t tasted abusive church practices. You haven’t been shamed into submission, or had the bible used as a whip to beat you down. I had that experience, and it almost destroyed my precious & tender love for our Lord Jesus Christ. Without blogs such as SSB & TWW, that bring to the light evil that is going on in some churches, by naming some pastors who are wolves dressed as shepherds, without them, how can I understand that it wasn’t my fault that I didn’t measure up to the heavy load that they placed on my shoulders.”
I am glad you haven’t been abused by a church leader, because it messes big time with your Trust in the Lord. And for the record, God is using SSB on my behalf and as He sees fit. My heart is grateful for J.A. and the people who comment here. There is a lot of love, wisdom, & mercy that flows here.
If you don’t have the experience of being crushed & controlled by a church leader or a Pastor… Would you stop to consider that many of us have been abused by the so called shepherds of His flock?
And we need a safe place to tell, share & expose the works of darkness..
It isn’t gossip, or bitterness, I can only speak for myself, just trying to navigate through stormy seas. Do you understand?
Hi Gail – Love your cyber name…
(Gail aka as Scared here. Done with being Scared)
And I appreciate your insight when you say…
“One sad thing I felt while following this conversation was that
Norris couldn’t hear all the voices here *that cared for his soul*
by warning him that spiritual abusers exist.
I pray he doesn’t learn about it the hard way,
I wouldn’t wish that heartbreak on anyone.”
Yes – I care for his soul – And ALL those who take a ”Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend NOT found in the Bible.
IMO – If that “Title” is NOT in the Bible – Then it is a – Commandment of Men, a Doctrine of men, a “Tradition of men” – that we are warned about in the Bible. And these folks are in bondage to a Tradition that makes VOID the Word of God. Mark 7:13. I know, I was there, I’m guilty as charged.
Yup – The Traditions of Men in “Todays Religious System” are very powerful…
Powerful enough to make VOID the Word of God.
monax
Much agreement when you write…
“your *having a certificate* to show that you’re a *valid ordained minister* makes you *suspect* in my book. No offense—but a piece of paper validates or * qualifies no one* for or from ministry.”
Seems when someone is given a certificate from “Mere Fallible Humans” they now believe they are qualified. And use that certificate to prove to others they are qualified. As Norris has said -”I am a valid ordained minister. I have my certificate to show you.”
I see things a little differently now that I’ve left “Todays Religious System.”
Seems today, when someone takes the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader/Reverend…
That seemingly innocent “Title” comes with something – “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition – Reputation – etc…
ALL those things Jesus spoke against.
ALL those things that become “Idols” of the heart.
ALL those things “Highly esteemed among men – But…
……. an abomination in the sight of God. Luke KJV 16:15
In my experience – With Pastor/Leaders – And having been in Leadership shows me…
“Titles” become “Idols” ……………. (“Idols” of the heart – Ezek 14:1-11 KJV)
“Pastors” become “Masters” ……. ( A No, No, in Mat 23:10 KJV)
When the “Title” is an “Idol” God now speaks to you according to your “Idols.”
And these “Idols,” carried in the pastors heart, are unseen to the natural eye, extremely difficult to lay down and walk away from. The – Power – Profit – Prestige, becomes an ADDICTION. And like any addiction – you never have enough – you always need more and more – Power to control – to satisfy the addiction. You think you’re in control, tell others you’re in control – but the addiction controls you. You’re in bondage to a “Tradition of Men,” an addiction – and a lie – and you do NOT know it.
Power corrupts – and absolute power – corrupts absolutely.
And – in my experience with “Todays Religious System.” This “power” corrupts ALL who attempt to wield this “power.” This “power” they think they have – to be a pastor – to rule over others – to be obeyed – to be someone special – to be someone important – to be a leader – is leading them to – Burnout – depression – hopelessness – discouragement – failure – and their families are effected as well…
This addiction to – Power – Profit – Prestige – is like other addictions – it destroys those who believe they can handle it. These addictions NOT only injures the pastor/leader/reverend – They also injure the Pastors family.
The statistics – for burned out pastors – say…
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php
80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression. (How does depression effect the Pastors family?)
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Gary W
I mirror your concern for some of the inconsistent things that Norris has said. And his willingness to accept, and make excuses, for those things he has been taught by men, things that are NOT in the Bible.
I’m still willing to give him the benefit of doubt – I do NOT hold his past against him, or anyones past. God’s mercies are new every morning – And we are brand new creations old things are passed away – ALL things become new.
And most I’ve met, who assume the “Title” pastor/leader/reverend…
Do NOT start out wanting to steal the Honor and Glory that belongs only to Jesus…
They just do NOT refuse it when it comes…
I am concerned when I ask Norris if he qualifies to be a pastor/elder/reverend and he does NOT have the ability to say – NO, I do NOT qualify today. He changes the subject to “positional-practical” stuff I’m familiar with. But, if that’s true about qualifying for pastor/elder/overseer? There is NO way for us to check out those who say they qualify. Because, now the Bible is NOT our standard – And now we have NO standard – And – We can just make up things as we go along.
I do NOT think that is a good idea. Those are some tuff qualifications.
And, in my experience, most pastor/elder/overseers will “Ignore” and “Twist” those qualifications in order to obtain, and maintain, that position of – Power – profit – Prestige.
Most I’ve met are NOT being honest with themselves…
When it comes to those very difficult qualifications…
Gary W
I’m in agreement when you write @ APRIL 6, 2013 @ 8:26 PM…
“A bishop must be above reproach. 1 Tim. 3:2. I think I am entitled to inquire into your background so that *I can test* your current maturity and qualifications to undertake what you are attempting to do in this blog space.”
Yes – Today I recommend – Every believer should, and has the right, to “test and check-out” those who call themselves pastor/elder/overseers to see if they really do qualify.
Maybe this will eliminate a some of the “Spirtual Abuse” that is rampant in the
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS calls church.
1 John 4:1 KJV
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (Test) the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Thess 5:12 KJV
And we beseech you, brethren, to *know them* (know – to perceive, discern, discover.)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
And these are some tuff qualifications that ALL believers can become familiar with.
Titus 1:6-8 KJV – says it nicely.
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
*Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
*Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Seems to be a small word – but very important. Yes? Is – Blameless – important?
1 – Blameless – Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Blameless – Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV – The bishop therefore must be without reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NIV – Now the overseer must be above reproach…
1 Tim 3:2 NLT – For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many “Elder/Overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey!
Aren’t ALL the requirements important? Which one’s can we ignore?
I do NOT see these requirements as being “positional” – at all.
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.* – NOW.
And – If they are NOT Blameless – Will they please remove themselves as Overseer…
And go do something else.
Dear Gail, I receive what you have to say and I clearly understand your position. However we must grow from that. We can’t remain in that perpetual state. We move on. We still have to grow in-Christ and bear the fruit of the Spirit. Now that can be easier said than done. However Christ will help us grow. God revealed what He did for you to take action. Positive actions, The Holy Spirit will equip you to overcome this obstacle. Then you will be able to minister to others who are going through the same trial. (Cor 1:3-4). Yet I’m very sensitive to your plight. I have not called anybody out of their names. I have tried to remain consistent with my behavior. I look forward to befriending many folks on this blog. God bless you Gail. from your bro. In-Christ.
Amos, i appreciate what you wrote to me. good stuff! thank you. .
Bro. Amos I will respond to you soon, I must step out for a minute. Love your brother in-Christ
Dear Norris,
“However we must grow from that. We can’t remain in that perpetual state. We move on. We still have to grow in-Christ and bear the fruit of the Spirit. Now that can be easier said than done.”
It is too bad that I can’t hear the tone in your voice nor can I see the compassion in your eyes as you admonish me. That is the tricky part about communicating via the internet.
When I first read what you were saying to me, it came across as a fix, like i need to hurry up and get over what happened. Though you did say easier said than done, & I appreciated you saying that.
Please understand that I have been corrected-fixed-yelled at- shamed by some, and by one who is now famous (in Focus on the Family circles) as a celebrity Christian leader. So, just, I know I am a little gun shy and I will not automatically trust you just because you say you are my brother in Christ who is a pastor.
Here is some good news. Jesus is moving me on. I am not trembling in my boots anymore for fear that I am going to get shamed or scolded into submission. How I went from being scared to using my real name, was finding places like Julie Anne’s blog, where I learned that it is good to bring to the light and it is not gossip or slander to name the abuse that so many leaders perpetuating against tender hearts, people who want to love & serve Jesus.
I spent fourteen years of my life in that prison of legalism, control, getting hammered with the law, O they would speak of grace, but believe me perfection was the standard. Gee, imagine that, Jesus, who said it is the sick who need a physician, not the healthy ones. Back then I thought I was entering a sinners hospital.
I might ruffle your pastors feathers a little, my sin sickness didn’t disappear the second I received Jesus into my heart. Heck no, I was 28 when I started my love affair with Jesus, I am 59 now, and I am still a sinner… O, those pesky sins the ones that lurk under the surface unaware, only to pop up when I seriously want to give the bird and I said a few choice words to the guy who almost crashed into me when I had my grand daughter in the car… Jesus kinda leveled the ground at the cross for self righteous folks by calling what goes on in the heart-murder, or what goes on when the eyes wander- perhaps you don’t have to struggle against your humanity- I am happy for you! That’s enough rambling…
Amos- Glad you like my cyber name- I loved what you e-mailed me!
Hello Gail, I have heard you loud and clear. Yes we need to demonstrate compassion to the lost and the save alike. It seems to me that all pastor are worthless with an axe to grind. Did’nt Jesus say they would be some in wolves clothing. Let’s not mix up those who are endearing their live to the cross of Christ with a full heart. The men that are being describe on this blog seems to be false leaders, at no time are the men of God suppose to pillage, pilfer or destroy the flock and it’s a sign that they are false teacher.Sister Gail I hope I have demonstrated grace on this blog, I am a grace teacher, I believe that Jesus is everything to the believers. As time goes on I hope to demonstrate that in my ministry. That is why I want to be an open and honest book before this blog, and yes I do struggle and will until the day of Christ return. That is what grace is all about. He will keep in perfect peace those whose eyes are on Him. I shall return in a minute. Love your brother in-Christ Who happens to be a pastor.
Gail,
Good words at 1:22, said with grace and love. Courage to you.
Gail, My heart has been heavy today and reading your comment at 1:22 really blessed me. Thank you for being so transparent with your spiritual abuse journey. It is beautiful and it’s like I’m watching a flower starting out as a bud and then bloom.
Amos,
As usual, what you say above, and not just to me, is well said. I especially like how you insist on holding the largely bought and paid for theologians to the Scripture they interpret but do not teach.
Here’s a little something I’ve been thinking about. When we see the words pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, prophet, elder, deacon, overseer in the Bible, maybe those words are just job descriptions. Like mechanic, secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. I have known a number of mechanics, but not a one of them has ever claimed to hold the office of mechanic. Nor have I ever known anybody who claimed to hold the offices of secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. These job descriptions don’t tend to get used as titles as with “pastor so and so.” Who ever addressed anybody as Mechanic Joe? Maybe it happens, but not in my part of the country.
And here’s something else. The world is organized on the principles of authority and power. Yet Jesus instructed his disciples that they were not to lord it over on others like the rulers of the Gentiles. So, on what principle is the Kingdom of God to operate? Could it be Love? Could it be on the same basis as the Love that does not insist on its own way? 1 Corinthians 13:5. Can it be that anybody who would use authority to impose their will is automatically disqualified from being recognized as a pastor?
Aww, Thanks Julie Anne,
It really is something to feel spring blossoming inside of my heart. Your grace & strength along with many of the folks who share here have watered the dry soil in my soul. It almost seems to good to be true… It has been a long long time since I have felt accepted & cared about when I am in the company of Christians. This is a healing place.
And the thought just went through my mind- stop brown nosing- hmm- that was snarky, I don’t want to do that. I hope you know what I say is sincere. Prayers now that you will experience His tenderness in your heavy heart.
Norris- Thank-You- Especially for this: “The men that are being describe on this blog seems to be false leaders, at no time are the men of God suppose to pillage, pilfer or destroy the flock and it’s a sign that they are false teacher.” Amen brother.
Gary W, I feel like I am talking way too much here, so I will be brief, what you shared gives me hope & joy.
So, on what principle is the Kingdom of God to operate? Could it be Love? Could it be on the same basis as the Love that does not insist on its own way? 1 Corinthians 13:5. Can it be that anybody who would use authority to impose their will is automatically disqualified from being recognized as a pastor?
Hello bro. Amos, my bad I’ve been in and out. However if your up now I do have some time. The misses is sleep. Now you still have not told me how does (eph 4:11) fits in your theory. I agreed that none of the apostle called themselves by the names you stated. However the bible does say there will be this five (5) fold ministry. Care to explain that. (smile).
Sister Gail, it seems to me you are growing again. Now is the time to remove all obstacle that satan has put in your way. The bible says grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (1pet 3:18) Grace teaches us not to live ungodly and soberly in this present age. (tit 2:11). Love holds no grudges nor does it speaks evil of anyone. However it rejoices with the truth. The love that is spoken there only God can produce. It’s the little sin that destroy us (sos 2:15). May God continue show you His grace.
Gail,
Yesterday you trustingly reached out to Norris with gentleness and truthfulness. You even made yourself vulnerable. He responds by admonishing you not to be ungodly, to be sober, to hold no grudges, and so on. He ends by suggesting that you are engaged in little sins that destroy. You have said or done nothing to deserve this kind of accusation and condemnation. There is nothing that says you are required to excuse or accept any of this. Please reject Norris’ false admonitions.
I urge you to avoid further conversation with Norris. If you find it difficult to avoid responding to him, maybe it would help to take whatever it is he is saying to the foot of the Cross, set it before Jesus, and watch Him cover it with His blood. I don’t know if that’s good theology, but I can tell you it has worked for me.
May our Lord richly and deeply bless you.
Hello and good morning Gail, I did no such things as that person describe. As he misinterpret scripture he misinterpret me. Only thing I can say for that guy is he has venom in his mouth when it comes to me. Not only did I encourage you, I also showed you where you spoke of the little sin that sometime get to us. At no time was I being accusative or condemning. As I said before I am a teacher of grace. Why did’nt that guy ask me what was it I was saying? Instead of condemning the things I said before he understood them. No Gail I continue to say to you to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this is therapy to you continue to use it to your benefit. Also pray for me that I learn how to convey my thoughts across the internet. Love your brother in-Christ.
Good morning Amos, if your up I would love to dialect with you. (smile)
Norris Lee
You write…
“However the bible does say *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
Hmmm? Can’t seem to find – In the Bible – as you say – “this five (5) fold ministry.”
Are you saying you can make monkeys fly out of your ears? – Again?.
Listen Norris – It’s one thing for us to dis-agree about what a certain Bible verse means. Or, even a group of verses. And there are many ideas, doctrines, man has taken from the Bible that are debatable – And I love researching the scriptures asking Jesus what these verses mean, for me, for today. So I can – “be established in the “Present Truth.” 2 Pe 1:12 KJV.
But – When you continually – “Add things to the Bible” and refer to things that are made up by “Mere Fallible Humans” to gain – Power – Profit – Prestige – Control – to “Lord it over God’s heritage.” When you continually – “Add things to the Bible” that have become “Traditions of Men” that make VOID the Word of God.
It becomes very difficult for me to responde to you.
Just a suggestion – If you continue to want to advertise yourself as pastor/teacher
You might want to stick with info that comes from the Bible – And NOT from Man.
For many years, I’ve listened to pastor/leader/reverends tell me, over and over again, The Bible Says… The Bible Says… And foolish me believed them because they had a “Title/Position” and told me they were trustworthy.
But – I start to check the Bible for myself – And, low and behold…
Much of what they told me was NOT – In The Bible – It was NOT “Truth.”
Now – You say – “The Bible Does Say” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
But – In my research – and God forbid, my research can be wrong…
In my research – The Bible Does NOT Say – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
Psalm 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Psalm 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth NOT the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies
Good morning brother, all i’m asking is for you to explain to me what does (eph 4:11) teaches and how does it applies to your teaching? I’m very familiar with Christ telling us how to build and perfect His church. If what you say is true then I do have a teachable spirit. I’m also willing to listen. Just show me how does (eph 4:11) fits in.
Norris Lee
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
Bro. Amos it’s a theological term. The scripture they use is (eph 4:11). It is used to teach how God will perfect His church through the teaching of the Holy Spirit (2tim 2:2). He use faithful men to accomplish His will. My bad I”m going in and out the house will love to respond sooner. Love bro. Lee
Norris Lee
You write…
“Amos it’s a theological term.”
NOPE – “Five Fold Ministry” is NOT a “Theological Term.”
Are you trying to make monkeys fly out of your ears? – Again?
Theology – Theo and logy
Theo – means God.
Logy – means – denoting a subject of study or interest.
Theology – Is the study of God.
“Five Fold Ministry” has nothing to do with the study of God.
——————–
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
Norris Lee
Oh Yeah!!! Almost forgot…
In EPh 4:11 – In the Greek there are only four positions – NOT Five.
So, Who ever told you there is a “Five Fold Ministry” – Can NOT count.
Why would you trust them?
Do they also have “Titles/Positions” pastor/leader/reverend – NOT found in the Bible?
Bro. Amos how do you fit that into your theory? Explain further, What is a Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher and how are they used to build up the body of Christ? What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus? Why would God placed that scripture in the bible if it did’nt mean what it says. Please explain. Five fold ministry surely relates to God and His plan on how to show us (the believers) how he will build (put an foundation under our feet) His church.
Norris Lee
You keep trying to make Monkeys fly out of your ears…
Can you please show me – Where? – In the Bible?
“The Bible Says” – *there will be* this five (5) fold ministry.”
And – What does “Fold” mean?
Or – At least admit
That like your “Title” pastor…
“Five Fold Ministry” is an invention of man – and is NOT in the Bible.
And you haven’t a clue to what “fold” means…
Brother Amos I explained what it meant to me. Do you want to use this as a stepping stone to teaching or do you want to berate me for my lack of knowledge.
Norris Lee
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
Brother Amos, I have to step out for a minute. Will respond when I get back.
Norris Lee – Oh Yeah…
Please – just call me Amos.
If we really are “Brothers in Christ” – We do NOT have to announce it.
We will know it – by the Spirit.
NOT saying this about you – but – in the past…
Many said they were my brother – When it benefited them…
But – when you challenge their Power – Profit – Prestige – Things get ugly – fast.
And I’ve been “crucified” by – Loving – Grace filled – Christian Brothers.
So, when I hear “Brother Amos” – I do NOT like it – and I do NOT trust it…
Actions speak louder then words – and all that…
Yes Mr. Amos, Paul did describe himself as an apostle several times in scripture, one of the ministry mentioned in (eph 4:11). Luke called some women by the name Prophet in the book of acts. Agabus also was called a prophet in the book of acts twice. Once again, one of the ministry mentioned in (eph 4-11). How does that apply to your theory? Love bro. Lee
Hello brothers and sister of this blog, My name is Norris Lee, I’m a brother in-Christ. I would to be a part of the fellowship here on this blog, however I sense a lot of hurt and pain. Yes we all struggle until the day of Christ, yet in the mean time we suppose to be loving toward each other. I have wronged no one on this site, however I seem to be an outcast. If I don’t understand something, I will search it out. I came in love and still believe in love. No you don’t me, yet I have not asked for anything other than your conversation. I have not stole from anyone, nor have I mislead anyone intentional. As I have said before I have a teachable spirit and I’m willing to learn, without hostility. I f I don’t get it, we can both agree to disagree in love. Please keep praying for me to understand tis blog.
Norris Lee
Okay – Let’s try again – Please call me Amos
NOT MR. Amos – NOT brother Amos… Just plain ole – Amos – thanks…
And you are the one who said…
“Do you want to use this as a stepping stone”
You’re interested in Eph 4:11 – And I have lots to say about that verse and all of Eph 4.
But – You write in your first comment to me @ APRIL 6, 2013 @ 10:10 AM…
“One thing I’ve learned in Christ is to establish a “true premise” in order to come to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore wrong premise, wrong answer.”
Now – Premise – in the dictionary is…
an assertion or proposition which forms the basis for a work or theory:
So the basis for my theory on Eph 4:11, begins with {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And what Jesus taught His Disciples that todays pastor/leader/overseers – “”Ignore.”
So to establish – what I feel is a “True premise” we have to start with Jesus.
———————
This is a repost…
Please – to the best of your ability – answer the question at th bottom… Thanks
———————
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
Norris you are right in saying there is a lot of hurt and pain. Its not something we can just get over, don’t know if we ever will. When you have been abused by a pastor it is extreemly hard to trust anyone. It just is. You always have a feeling that the man behind the pulpit is up to something. It’ s sad really, but once you experience that level of spiritual abuse you learn to protect yourself. I think you have a good heart continue to pray for the hurting.
I know this is a stupid question, Where does it say in scripture Amos that Jesus taught Titus and/or Timothy Himself. Also I would like to know how did you learn the scripture? What tools did you use to gather your information.
Thank you Tina for your in sight.
Norris Lee
You ask;;;
“Where does it say in scripture Amos that Jesus taught Titus and/or Timothy Himself.”
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
Psalms 32:8
I will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
It does take a step of faith to believe and trust
that Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.
And we do have some examples; 1 – Jesus, 2 – Peter, 3 – Paul.
1 – Jesus, as man, delclared, “He” could do nothing of Himself.
And – taught His Disciples – the one living in you will teach you.
John 8:28
…I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19
…The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
2 – Peter understood that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God.
Jesus declared that Peter was blessed for two reasons – because;
1 – Flesh and blood “didn’t” reveal that to him.
2 – The Father, from the realm of Spirit, inside him – “did” reveal it.
Mt 16:17
Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven.
3 – Paul declared that “his gospel” was not of man,
he received it from God and he conferred NOT with flesh and blood.
Ga 1:11-16
…the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it,
but by the revelation of Jesus Christ
16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
**immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:**
Just a thought.
Do we want to learn about God from a Mere Fallible Human? Who wrote a book?
Or, would we rather learn from Jesus, “the God/Man,”
“The Word of God,” who wrote “The Book?”
Who better to “interpret scripture” than Jesus?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Hi Norris,
When I read how you responded to me this morning I thought:
Oh, for goodness sake bro Norris, please take off the preachers hat, and just share your heart or your story with us/me. I do know the Scriptures, I had them shoved down my throat for years.
I am more interested in your story, because Jesus is the author of our lives and he is writing us… I have been praying for you today as you asked: “Also pray for me that I learn how to convey my thoughts across the internet.”
My reaction to what Gary W said to me was heartfelt gratitude. He had my back, and sad to say that has been a rare thing… I suspect he knows what someone has been through, is going through, after being abused by pastors & leaders.
As, I said before, I cannot trust you, because I have a motto now Trust is earned.
Now, if you just want to share your heart here and not your knowledge, I am all ears.
And Norris
Are you saying the conversation we’ve been having makes you feel like an outcast?
And – You still haven’t answered the question…
———————
This is a repost…
Please – to the best of your ability – answer the question at th bottom… Thanks
———————
Okay – “a stepping stone” – “a learning experience.”
Well, we’ll see…
You ask…
“What was Timothy position in the church, how about Titus?”
“Servants.” “His Disciples.” Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor – leader – reverend.
They ALL called themselves “Servants.”
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Pastors or Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a “Disciple of Christ?”
God bless you and all that are on this site Gail. I shall be patient and try to understand, I have not been abused by a pastor. Yet I have faced abuse in my life. I was molested as a child, however I turned out alright.(I hope I did) I did not let that stop me from socializing with others. I guess I’m different, I always give the person in my life the benefit of the doubt. That’s what love is opening oneself to be hurt. We all have baggage that we carry around, Some just more than others. I’m scared to say what I’m being led to say because of misinterpretation of what I’m saying. What ever I say will be in LOVE. Until later Bro. Lee
Amos, you have lost me. I know, When I was taught the scripture, I was taught that ALL scripture must coincide with each other. If what you say is true (what part does man play in teaching the scripture). Why did Paul teach Timothy to teach other men who would be able to teach others. I understand the point you are making, however God uses men to accomplish that part. Just as he did with penning the scripture. We are told that the Holy Spirit was the author of the bible, but He used holy men to pen it. Please shed light on this.
Norris- Forgive me for being so slow to respond. I ache for anyone who has known the horror of being molested as a child. I am truly sorry that you experienced that horror.
It took me years to be able to tell others my story of sexual abuse, and when I did I experienced a lot of shame even as a Christian. And then a lot of more pain, when I was told by my pastor to just forget it, put it in the past, it was over and done.
NOT SO MUCH. Accepting Jesus Christ into my heart didn’t automatically erase the traumas of my childhood. And the instruction of well meaning, but seriously mistaken, believers “to forget those things behind me” only buried alive in me the agony & pain inside.
I now can see that I received bad counsel from my pastor, isolating Philippians 3:13.
When in the previous verses Paul hadn’t forgot where he came from, he had just stated clearly where he came from. Now I am not a pastor or a theologian, but what seemed clear to me was don’t deny or forget where you have been, Paul didn’t…
And of course, I did not want my past to dictate my future, but memorizing verses, praying my heart out, neglecting my family because I was exhorted to serve my butt off at the church, fasting, running on that performance wheel of trying to be perfect didn’t bring healing or peace.
I am taking a semi risk here in sharing with you. Please understand that I am not looking for or needing you to encourage or instruct me, I am just sharing as a beggar with another beggar the larger story & a few questions.
How did it impact you as a little boy to be molested? Did anyone listen & believe you? How did you work through it? Or have you? Do you still have a place inside you that still bears the shame and scars of being sexually abused?
heavy questions, Gail. .
fwiw, as a little boy i was sexually molested by my adopted father / who was also a well respected pastor. . and i am still affected to this day as a 44 year old man from that abuse. . still affected. . not to say i’m harboring any unforgiveness or bitterness. . but to this day my relationships have been affected by what he did to me. . long story for me, but i dissociated the sexual abuse—and it may very well be that the alter who absorbed the trauma is dead. . it’s a story i’d like to share maybe sometime down the road. . not now though.
i’m still reading along. . thought i’d drop my own person testimony to the impact of childhood sexual abuse. .
monax – big hugs from the West coast to the East coast from JA. It was painful to read about your past – - I felt a literal pain. I hate abuse. But through that abuse, you have an amazing capacity to love others who have been hurt. That is the beauty that comes from such cruel pain. I’m so glad that our paths crossed, monax. Love you, brother!
You know, me mum once asked me, she said: “David, How is it that you feel most loved?”
i sat on that question for about an hour, then got back to her. “Mom,” i said, “I feel most loved by being understood.”
that was my answer.
thanks, ja, for you love and understanding. .
That is a very good response and profound, too. When you feel understood, there is an instant connection. Not being understood feels like a wall between two people – a divide of sorts. You’re welcome
Hugs, Monax! That’s a pain beyond words.
To be able to answer your mum that it is understanding that makes you feel loved was incredibly mature and insightful. I wonder if that is what most abuse victims feel? I’ll bet it is.
When I’m with people who understand, so much is right, even if we disagree on many other things. Being understood makes us feel safe. Our radar, or BS meter, goes off when we hear shallow platitudes, quick easy spiritual fixes for the great harms that were done. People who don’t understand what abuse does to a person can only gain respect and trust if they really love … with patience, teachable heart, gentleness, etc…
My litmus test for people is how they respond to the abused. Is it with irritation, wishing they’d get over it yesterday and no longer be a bother to you? Or do they grieve for them, care about their long and difficult journey, and want to love them in some meaningful way?
And it seems that the moment a person reveals they’ve been abused, then the expectation for them to respond to it perfectly, almost without feeling, certainly without any doubts, and no real anger, either, is laid at their feet … while the perpetrator is treated with kid gloves and lots of grace. Well, that’s been my observation, anyway.
Monax, I’m sure you’ve experienced some of this along the way and I’m very sorry for all you’ve had to go through.
O, Monax, Yes, I know: Very heavy questions indeed.
I was asking Norris my questions because I wondered if he might be burying his painful past behind the Word.
Painful: to ask: Only because if that is what he was been taught to do by the church… then so much is missing
It never entered my mind that duh, others might be reading. Please forgive me.
Gotta sleep now.
FWIW I ache that you were abused…. Abuse truly leaves long lasting scars…
Katie, i see you understand. .
and, actually, it’s really only a few close personal friends that know about the abuse—and then y’all at SSB here. that’s about it.
Monax, my heart aches too for what you have suffered. I have found in this trial that I also do not want to be preached at and what I thought I was so sure of I question now. I don’ t care to debate the things in the Bible, thats why I don’t comment when things turn into a scripture debate. I have a more simple faith now, it’s just me and God.
Although while I was in leadership at CCV I spent alot of time in the Word, I now have a more free relationship with God then I have ever in my life. I think the whole Bible boils down to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor. Maybe I’m too simple but I like it 
Thank you for sharing your heart, you’re a good man.
Monax thanks for sharing your heart.
Sacred Gail, you’re all good from my end. . =]
of possible interest: http://spiritualauthority.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/prayers-for-gayle-and-paul-grenier/
Hi Tina, I noticed we have a friend in common from your Facebook.
Oh my, Monax! I just read it.
Tina,
reflecting on your comment above—i’d like to share with you how i stopped doing the institutional church thing about 14 months ago. . prior to that i had spent my entire life doing church the traditional way. .
i wasn’t sure how i’d manage not “having a church”—but guess what!? contrary to what might have been expected—i didn’t become stunted. no, i began to experience a spiritual growth i apparently hadn’t been free to experience till then. my spiritual life since has only deepened—not slackened as some might have presumed.
community is harder for me now but its more intentional. . and different. . and it’s more than just home fellowships with prayer and bible studies. . it’s cook outs and swimming parties. . and like i did with my bro yesterday—we played frisbee golf and caught up with each other along the course. . we encouraged each other, had dinner together, prayed, finished up our reading of the book of Romans. . we are living life together as the body of X.
i’ve always done this kind of thing but as supplemental to church activities. . and now that i’m being church with other Xn friends who are no longer into the “church” scene. . guess what i’m discovering?
in the last several months it has occurred to me that in most of the christian churches the pastors and spiritual leaders have essentially come in-between and even against Christ and His sheep. . . . they are effectively inhibiting the growth of Christ’s sheep through all their institutional mediations and such. . i’m now convinced of this. .
most churches are Houses of Bondage!
Interesting how this is what missionaries do all the time, only they have less fellowship unless they have a team they work with.
Monax, I agree.
especially now with fb
Katie, its a small world
monax
David – I’m so sorry – for what happened to you…
I’ve been sitting here in Barnes & Nobles for two hours this morning.
Just mourning – Reading and re-reading these comments …
NOT knowing how to respond to the pain and abuse suffered by…
you, and Gail, and Tina, and Norris…
My heart breaks for you all…
And I thank Go for you all…
Jesus wept. — Jn 11:35
And I thank God for you all
Bless you Amos. I only have a minute to respond, but I will be free this evening to catch up on reading… I thank-God for all here too.
Tina
I appreciate what you write @ APRIL 10, 2013 @ 9:38 PM…
“what I thought I was so sure of I question now.”
—- I can really relate to that. My world, and what I believed was turned up-side-down.
“I don’ t care to debate the things in the Bible,”
—- After I left “The Religious System” it was over 2 years before I picked up a Bible.
Or, could read it – the pages were often of brass – I couldn’t focus.
—- Eventually, After a few years of just going to work and going back home to cry a lot. A few years of NOT doing anything for Jesus. NOT going to church. NOT minstering to anyone. NOT evangelizing, NOT shareing the Gospel with the Lost. – NOT being able to read the Bible. All those things I trusted in to get me closer to God. I figured I must have done something really wrong and Jesus was done with me. I was one of those vessels made for dis-honor.
But God… Eventually, little by little, I realized, it wasn’t my fault – And Jesus loved me. – And I mean – Jesus just loved me, whether I did anything for Him – or NOT. Whether I served Him – or NOT. Whether I advanced the Kingdom of God – or NOT. I did NOT have to tithe. I did NOT have to help the poor. I didn’t have to do anything at all to please Him.
NO longer having to deal with “The Heavy Weights” placed on shoulders…
That “The Religious Leaders” had placed on my shoulders…
Jesus just loved me – Just the way I was…
Strengths, and weaknesses, and character defects, and sins, and all.
WOW – The freedom – NO longer having to “perform” to Mans standards.
Just enjoying being loved by Jesus – Just the way I was…
“thats why I don’t comment when things turn into a scripture debate.”
—- Please forgive me if all thee Bible verses I’m throwing around causes any angst, any triggers. This post was about your story – And what you went thru and suffered. By those who said the Bible is God’s Word and let you down and Abused you.
————
If what I’m writing is offensive to you – Please, let me know…
You can email me privatly if you like…
lovefaith101@me.com
———–
Eventually I did get back to the Bible. But it was much different. I had to throw out all I thought I knew and start from scratch. Went to the Gospels and read about Jesus. Over and over again – Often just the Red. I wanted to get to know Jesus and what He said. NOT what I was taught by man. I became ruthless, wanting to get rid of “The Commandments of men,” “The Traditions of Men” I was taught and believed…
This is what I now recommend for all believers.
Go to Jesus for your self – Get it directly from Him.
“I have a more simple faith now, it’s just me and God.”
Yeah – For a long time – NO one would listen to what I had gone thru. No one could, or would, understand.
Oh, to be understood – (That was beautiful monax.)
When folks asked me “Where do you go to church?”
Because I NO longer wanted to talk about it – I would answer…
I’m a part of small Home Fellowship – And most would leave it at that.
Yeah – It was a small Home Fellowship – Me and Jesus.
Thanks for understanding…
Re: Tina, I didn’t understand why this person we mutually know would not want to attend CC with us. She tried to explain about this bad CC pastor in Visalia, but I didn’t comprehend it back then. Oh how the blinders fell off … I get it now.
to love and be loved
to know and be known
to understand and be understood
truly, what more is there?
Hello everybody, just caught up on reading this blog, powerful stuff blows me out the water. Just reading that’s all. Love bro. Lee
Norris, I begin to see. If you can receive it, my heart goes out to you. No need to reply, although I would be pleased if you choose to do so.
Hello Gary, surely I will reply, I always must show a willingness to forgive, that is what our Lord and Saviour is all about. I should change my name to misunderstood. However I believe in second chances. (Jonah 3:1). God has given me one to reside with my family once again. Hallelujah for that!
I love you back, Lee—my true and beautiful brother!
Dear Monax,
I was just able to catch up and read what you wrote from the link you provided, and my heart is stuck in my throat… What can mere words say to convey the compassion & sorrow that is flooding my heart & filling my eyes after reading more about the hell that you have been through… O dear one in Christ, I hope by calling it hell, that doesn’t offend you. For me, abuse has been a hell of its own. Thank-You for sharing your heart. I literally feel as if I am on holy ground, it is very sacred to share our secrets, and the way people respond here is a taste of what heaven might be like. Lord Bless You.
THIS!!
Monax- April 11, 2013 @ 12:20 PM
to love and be loved
to know and be known
to understand and be understood
truly, what more is there?
What more is there? Amen or YES… I hear so much beauty coming out of your words Monax that I am wondering if it springs from ashes… Perhaps I am taking that scripture totally out of context?
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
trees of righteousness indeed!
Gail,
dissociation is a deep mystery. . . even to someone like myself who experienced it as a child and researched it as an adult. . . it is an extraordinary gift from God.
i shed some tears earlier today thinking about what i wrote yesterday—how the childhood alter who absorbed the abuse may be dead.
simply: i don’t know what he knows. . . and in a sense, Gail, the abuse did not happen to me. i—the guy that’s been me for over thirty years—does not know what he knew. i did not experience it, nor do i have access to the traumatic memories.
so, if i may take a moment to pay tribute to him. . .
he was a true hero. . . and he—like Christ—took it all upon his person so that the rest of dissociated me could grow up in the beautiful daylight oblivious to the horrors of night. i thank him and praise the LORD for the life he gave to the world. . . and most especially for the relative happy life he gave me as a child.
so i grieve with you today, my friends, for what happened to a little boy that was me—but not me. and i take this opportunity to cry also for all the little boys and little girls who even now are experiencing things they never were created to experience.
thanks for the opportunity to cry. . . it’s like a rain that purifies the air
A Amos Love
you never offend me. I’m not easily offended and this thread isn’t about me. I wrote it so someone might relate and know they weren’t alone. My prayer is that others would recognize spiritual abuse and run from it.
I share your prayer, Tina, that others would recognize spiritual abuse and not support it. This may mean a running from it. It may also mean (for those called to the fight) a running to it—to address and hold known abusers accountable.
Monax,
I sent you an email. ( :
Hello Gary W., My bad, I thought about this all day, how i should have ask you also for forgiveness, because I was wrong for calling you a cyber bully. So I pray that you can also forgive me. Love your bro. in-Christ
Hello Bro. Monax, May God, continue to use you in expressing yourself so clearly. That others may gravitate toward your honesty. Truth and love covers a multitude of sins. God bless you.Bro. Lee
Go ahead Gail. .
[[ Trigger Warning: discussion of trauma based dissociation commencing ]]
hey Lee. . please just call me monax. . drop the bro thing with me too, if you wouldn’t mind—it reminds me of a certain creepy church-speak. . i trust you’ll understand.
your words to me remind me of what William Blake said: Every honest man is a prophet.
************Trigger Warning: discussion of trauma based dissociation************
Monax,
I share your belief that D.I.D. “is an extraordinary gift from God”
If that is the same thing you are referring to when you name it as dissociating…?
I think I am on the right track, because you gave your blessing & gratitude to the alter that absorbed for you the evil that was perpetrated on you as a little boy.
I first learned about D.I.D. from a woman who had been raised in horrors that made my childhood look like a scenes from Father knows best. I am not undermining what I experienced, but I have never heard another story as dark & evil as hers was. It is a long story, but a couple of her alters, starting calling me. I would call her back after I talked to them, pretty they were her alters.
Also, I had been reading about M.P.D. (though the experts don’t call it that now) she was mortified and thought her alters were were getting out of control, but the little ones in her, trusted me & wanted to talk.
O, and there was one hell of a gate keeper who ripped me a new one, but that didn’t scare me. Long story short, I knew a therapist who had worked with others who had these little helpers, and my friend got a lot of help working with this woman. Her alters needed to tell their stories, so they could integrate into one being inside of her.
Truly, it was a gift for her soul, spirit, mind & body to have alters to absorb what a little child, a precious innocent on her own just couldn’t endure…
And through the years I have met many who have had that gift of dissociation. It seems to me one of the most precious needs they have is to know: That it is a divine gift that they have been given, They are not weird, Possessed, Making it up, they were protected in a way that 99.5% of people cannot understand.
Monax, I salute your little hero! Bravo.
And take this in a nut shell, I am not a expert, but I have had some experience with this, and it might be a possiblility that your little guy is very shy.
And with all my being I believe that if the Lord knows you need to connect with him then it will happen under His watchful eye. Bless you my brother in Christ.
ugh- meant to say, pretty sure they were her alters
yes. DID DSM-IV+
i know what you’re saying. .
and i could talk for hours about dissociation. . but i need to turn my present energies to my friend who’s waiting to watch Hanna [a 2011 film] with me. . the description on the Netflix envelope reads promising
i do appreciate what you’ve shared with me, Gail. Thank you. .
Noris, you have my forgiveness. Thank you for asking. You also have my offer of friendship, although I should perhaps warn you that, to my mind, friendship includes the privilege of being honest–and truth comes easier to me than love. If there is anything you hold against me, and I would be surprised if there isn’t, please forgive me. While I hope you will be gentle, I give you permission to tell me specifically what it is you are needing to forgive. Just be prepared. I reserve the right to argue my case. You see, and I will tell you as much as I have already mentioned about myself in a couple of other threads, I am a lawyer.
If you choose to address me again, you might wish to know that I will not be responding now until at least tomorrow.
No worries Monax! Signing out myself too. zzzzzzzz”’sssssssssss’szzzzzz’s
Hanna was a great movie!
——————
L. O. V. E.
——————-
The
L. anguage O. f V. ictorious E. ternity
Is LOVE
——————-
God Is LOVE
——————-
LOVE one another
——————-
Gary W
I liked what you said here @ APRIL 9, 2013 @ 3:07 PM…
**maybe those words are just job descriptions.***
“Here’s a little something I’ve been thinking about. When we see the words pastor, teacher, evangelist, apostle, prophet, elder, deacon, overseer in the Bible, ***maybe those words are just job descriptions.*** Like mechanic, secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. I have known a number of mechanics, but not a one of them has ever claimed to hold the office of mechanic. Nor have I ever known anybody who claimed to hold the offices of secretary, garbage collector or truck driver. **These job descriptions don’t tend to get used as titles** as with “pastor so and so.” Who ever addressed anybody as Mechanic Joe? Maybe it happens, but not in my part of the country.”
And we do NOT find anyone, in the Bible, using these job descriptions as “Titles.”
And – I’ve been thinking that these job descriptions can move around a little.
Because we are all brethren and Jesus is the “ONE” teacher. Mat 23:8.
And – It is Christ in “US,” His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church” the Hope of Glory…
When “WE” The church of God, The Body of Christ, comes together,
ALL can, and are expected to, participate. 1 Cor 14:26 – So…
One day – You’re teaching your Revelation of Jesus to me and others. And…
One day – I’m teaching my Revelation of Jesus to you and others.
One day – Gary’s job description sounds like teacher.
One day – Amos’ job description sounds like teacher.
In one comment – monax is teacher – And elder – the more mature one…
More mature in understanding – LOVE – is being understood…
Now because of monax – The Body of Christ, “The Church” “WE” is edified, built up.
Jesus said, I will build MY Church – And that word “build” is also “to edify.”
And you and me and “WE” – is the Body, The Church of God. – NOT a 501(c)3. Corp.
In one comment – Gail is teacher – And elder – the more mature one.
Being able to teach me about – D.I.D. – Dissociative Identity Disorder…
Being “an extraordinary gift from God.”
Now – Because of Gail – Amos, part of the Body, The Church, is built up – Edified.
In one comment – Julie Anne – Is tending the flock, feeding the flock.
Careing for and shepherding The Body of Christ, the Church of God.
Now – Because Julie Anne shepherds – pastors – lays down her life for the sheep.
“WE” here, The Church, the Body of Christ – is Cared for, Built up and Edified.
I like the term – Body Ministry – We are ALL ONE Body. ALL are important.
Gary – Did I explain myself? – Did you get my drift? – Or did I muddy the waters?
Amos,
There you go again showing us “The Most Excellent Way”
Love Is Indispensable
I can’t speak for Gary, but as for me, no waters were muddied… The body of Christ seems to be operating here on staggering levels!
“Now the body is not made up of one part, but of many,
every joint supplies to the each and the any.
If the foot should say because I am a not hand I don’t belong,
it needs to recall that God placed together the weak & the strong.
“Now you are the body of Christ and each one of has a part in it”
God arranged the members in the body-making sure the less honorable fit!
The eye cannot say to the hand: I don’t need you,
and the heart cannot say to the feet, I have no use for for what you do.
On the contrary those parts of the body that seem weaker are indispensable,
though to the Experts & Leaders that truth seems incomprehensible. ( ;
Gail
Yup – Much agreement when you write…
“The body of Christ seems to be operating here on staggering levels!”
And it feels so good…
Gail – Everyone
The last couple of mornings – I read and re-read these comments…
I’m amazed, in awe, thankful for the comments and the commenters…
The Body of Christ – The Ekklesia – The Church – Being Kings and Priests unto God.
Showing – Love in action – Wisdom – Forgiveness – Mercy – Grace…
And I have HOPE…
Pleasant words are as an honeycomb,
sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Thank you Jesus
Amos,
You explained yourself and made yourself clear. You are quite gifted in presenting truth in a manner that is not only clear and understandable, but fun to read. I also like the way you keep driving home points that some would resist, and I like the way you do it by bringing the conversation back to Scripture, and then bringing it back to Scripture again.
And I join you in your observation to the effect we all have something to contribute, which isn’t much promoted or even allowed in traditional “church.” Indeed, I have been following the conversation between Gail and Monax with great emotion. Hi Gail and Monax! My failure to join in has nothing to do with lack of interest. It is simply that I see little value in anything I would have to contribute. I must learn from them.
Amos,
I have prepared a list of things I can think of that paid, professional, pastors (you know what I mean!) might be expected to do. Right now the list is in random order. I am hoping to find the time to put it in an order where the first things listed are the things that would get the pastor fired for not doing them, with the last things listed being those things where the pastor’s failure to do them wouldn’t even be noticed. I have my biases, so I am hoping to get my professional pastor friend to contribute. Then, if I can find anybody willing to take the challenge, I will be asking for specific Scriptural instruction and/or example showing that each activity is prescribed, again specifically, for pastors. Here is the list in its current form:
Preach regularly, including at least on Sunday mornings
Be in charge of regular services
Lead fellowship gatherings
Conduct funeral services
Teach
Pray over people corporately
Privately pray for people corporately
Pray with people individually
Privately pray for people individually
Visit the sick
Evangelize as part of church services
Evangelize one on one
Promote local church growth
Promote giving to the local church
Organize and promote special events
Promote the programs of the denomination
Recruit people to serve in local church ministries
Encourage people to participate in denominational functions
Bind up the broken hearted
Seek signs and wonders
Seek to impart the gift of tongues
Seek to identify individual spiritual gifts
Seek to establish individuals in ministering according to their gifts, talents, training and experience
Demonstrate Christlikeness
Indoctrinate
Protect the church from ideas that disagree with denominational doctrine
Heal the sick
Feed the poor
Clothe the naked
Defend the oppressed
Comfort those who mourn
Weep with those who weep
Laugh with those who laugh
Share in carrying others’ burdens
Take in the homeless
Satisfy the desire of the afflicted
Study the Bible
Study doctrine
Cast out demons
Lobby for righteous laws
Oppose wicked laws
Discipline erring church members
Gary W
I like your style – Way cool list…
Remember to send me the results when you get it in proper order.
And I’d love to hear what your “professional pastor friend to contribute” says…
Gary W
Yup…
“we all have something to contribute,
which isn’t much promoted or even allowed in traditional “church.”
Me-thinks that’s because – Those with the “Titles” do NOT really believe…
Really believe that Jesus can “Build” His Church and Jesus can “Teach” “US” ALL Truth.
Me-thinks that’s because – Those with the “Titles” need to protect their
Power – Profit – Prestige – Glory – Honor – Reputation – Recognition, etc…
If ALL being able to contribute was allowed in “traditional “church?”
It wouldn’t be long before sheeple would realize “WE,” “The Church,” do NOT need…
Paid – Professional – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews…
Preventing – Public – Participation – and – Promoting – Passive – Pew – Potatoes….
Procuring – Power – Profit – Prestige – for the Prevailing – Parsing – Pastors…
Hi Gary. Hi Amos.
What makes me smile when I read you men, what makes my heart happy and glad, is that you are like me and Bavinck in believing “[t]he only standard by which the church can be judged is Scripture itself. The true church really has only one mark: the Word of God. . . . The Word and the Word alone is truly the soul of the church.”
Yes, the Holy Scripture is our only standard for faith and practice. And as we agree on this—we have solid ground from which to engage each other. I know my last engagement with you guys ended without me fully answering all your challenges. I still plan to do this, but as you well know: “the heart of man plans his way, but the LORD—ultimately—determines his steps.” Looks like a “few days” at my end is turning into a “few months.”
I know it will be a significant investment in time on my part to answer all your challenges, but I do hope to make a good effort of it—who knows—maybe this early Summer? [I haven’t even looked at ja’s more recent Comp / Egal threads for lack of time to commit to what I know will be a deeply edifying, energy-intensive conversation.] So, my beautiful brothers, please know that I’m sitting on some answers until a freer time.
One thing, in the moment, I’d like to reiterate is a caution against conflating the role of pastor with that of elder. You can find my thoughts on this and your challenges to me here: http://spiritualauthority.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/question-of-rebellion/
Something new, Amos, I’d like to challenge you on.
Here’s Paul’s directive: ‘Let the elders who lead well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture say, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages”’ (1 Tim 5:17-18).
Is it not—a la Scripture—our Christian duty to provide for those good elders who labor in preaching and teaching? Why should we be against paying our faithful pastors and teachers for the difficult tasks they’ve been gifted and called by God to do?
. .
Gail, so true—this incomprehensibility of honor due the seemingly weaker members of the body. Let me continue your quoting from 1 Corinthians 12:
…the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
Sacred Gail, i’d be curious to hear more about this gate keeper.
Sad story: half my life ago i received a phone call from a beloved friend a thousand miles away. it was her little girl alter who had called me crying for help. so i hopped on a plane and flew to see her. i believed if i were given just a half hour alone with her i might have been successful in bringing my friend out of her haze. but her handler wouldn’t allow me a moment alone with her. after i attempted for over 36 hours—unsuccessfully—to connect with her, i flew back home the following night. high above a thunderstorm i remember feeling remarkably numb and through watery eyes watching lightning everywhere illuminating the clouds below.
Monax,
You are quite right to observe that pastor/elder/overseer or, worse, bishop/elder/overseer cannot be viewed as one and the same, although I did engage in just such a conflation in earlier posts. Partly I am willing to do this just to avoid getting distracted from the issue at hand. But also, there is a bit of polemical judo involved. If somebody is using un-Scriptural terminology, it becomes more difficult for them to point to Scripture that supports their position. Well, there, I ‘ve given away my little secret.
And, if I may be so bold as to respond to a question to put to Amos, I say, yes, wages to the laborer, grain to the ox, and double honor to those who labor in teaching and preaching. I’m not saying that those who teach and preach should never be paid. We are not under law, though we should embrace wisdom, and we are at liberty to pay those who teach and preach, if we so choose. Just please don’t anybody tell me that I am required to be a member of any created-by-men organization, that these organizations are to be headed up by a single man or woman (whether you call them pastors, ministers, parsons, bishops or whatever), and that the congregants are compelled to pay the old covenant tithe to pay their salary. Where does the Bible every say anybody is entitled to a salary?
I am a bit uncomfortable with my analysis in that Jesus did say that a laborer is entitled to his wages. Luke 10:7. Even there, however, Jesus was speaking of itinerant ministers being given shelter, food and drink while ministering. When I look at the discussions of gifts and the descriptions of fellowship in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, the impression I get is that the ordinary expectation is that all ministry comes from within the local body, that each contributes according to their gifting, talents, training and experience, and nobody is expecting to be paid. It is another story when ministers are brought in from outside, but even there it appears to be more a matter of covering expenses.
Maybe Paul claimed the right of apostles to be paid, but I don’t know where to look for it right now, and his example was to pay his own way.
On the other hand, I’m thinking I should go back and ask to be compensated for all the times I have taught, in one capacity or another, without being paid.
Yes, Gary, terminology is key. And, agreed—Christians are under no compulsion to give to church, nor are they subject to the old covenant tithe. I think I happily agree with everything you said above. 1 Cor 9 is where Paul surrenders his rights for material honor.
monax
Thanks for the challenge…
And believe it NOT – I do have some answers for you – When you write…
“Here’s Paul’s directive: ‘Let the elders who lead well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture say, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages”’ (1 Tim 5:17-18).”
“Is it not—a la Scripture—our Christian duty to provide for those good elders who labor in preaching and teaching? Why should we be against paying our faithful pastors and teachers for the difficult tasks they’ve been gifted and called by God to do?”
Sounds like a very reasonable assumption…
“WE” “The Ekklesia,” “The Called out Ones” should be paying our faithful pastors.
That’s what I believed at one time. – And taught at one time.
But – Since leaving “The Religious System” I see it a little different.
NOT that I have “The Final Answer – I do reserve the right to be wrong.
Been wrong a few times in the past and have changed my mind.
So, I have a few (A lot of.) questions to ask of you before we continue.
————
1 – In the Bible, Where does it say an “elder” is a – “pastor?”
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that had the “Title” – pastor?
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that called them self – pastor?
If there are NO elders called “pastor” in the Bible?
Does this non-biblical pastor still “deserves his wages?”
————
2 – Is this “elder” here, an office, And you become an “elder” when ordained?
Or is this “elder” – elder, of age, advanced in life, already Overseeing?
And Paul, in 1 Tim 3 and Titus is saying…
Find “elders” who qualify – and ordain them – appoint them – Overseers.
Because – they were already older, and they qualified – then were ordained?
And there is a reasonable debate on both sides of the issue.
It’s NOT so cut and dried – NOT an easy answer – Unless you desire this “Position.”
Then I just get someone with a some official looking papers and a “Title”
To give me some papers and to ordain me and I’m an “elder” that you pay.
Okay – that’s a bit of sarcasm – Forgive me – But it’s also true – So I’ll leave it.
————
3 – Does this “elder” have to meet ALL the tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus?
And – If this “elder” does NOT have to meet ALL the qualifications? Why NOT?
————
4 – Leading “WELL” – Ruling “WELL” KJV – Seems to be the major draw back here.
Because – Ruling “WELL” – seems to be another qualification from Paul.
Like when he gives the other qualifications for this potential Elder/Overseer.
In 1 Tim 3:4-5 KJV
“One that “ruleth well” his own house,
having his children in subjection with all gravity”
(For if a man know not how to “rule his own house,” (protect – guard – care for)
how shall he take care of the church of God?)
————
5 – What is the standard for – *Lead “Well?”* Rule “WELL?”
How do we know what that is? Who determines if an “elder” is Ruling WELL?
If they are NOT Ruling WELL? – Do they still “deserves his wages?”
If they do NOT qualify to be an Elder/Overseer? – Do they still “deserves his wages?”
Or, should they remove themselves and go do something else?
————
6 – Lead or Rule here in the Greek – is Stongs #4291 – proistemi – And…
Thayers has “proistemi” as…
1- to set or place before. 1a- to set over.
1b- to be over, to superintend, preside over.
1c- to be a protector or guardian. 1c1- to give aid.
1d- to care for, give attention to.
WOW – This one who Rules is someone who…
Is a protector, a guardian, gives aid, cares for, gives attention to…
Now, to me that’s a whole different flavor then how we understand “Leader” today.
Leader – Dictionary – “The person who leads or commands a group,”
Command – Dictionary – “give an authoritative order”
So, leader today means – someone who leads a group giving authoritative orders.
No thanks – tried that stuff a few times…
Did NOT work out so well having humans who lead. They stinketh…
If this “elder” is NOT – protecting – guarding – caring for – giving attention – “WELL?”
Do they still “deserves his wages?”
————
So that’s my little challenge back to you – Sorry for the long windedness.
But I believe these questions to be important.
Jesus loves “US” this I know…
***** caution trigger alert for those who might suffer from D.I.D.*****
Monax: I will share with you, with some trembling, not because of how you will respond, but as you are aware a lot of Christian, heck, even those in the mental heath field remain divided on D.I.D. Christians especially are rather brutal on this subject because some insist that the BIBLE doesn’t address it, or they say it is demonic, and that is not a complete list of how misunderstood this topic is, as I am sure you are very aware. Sigh.
So as far as terms go, I think handler & gate keeper are the same term, correct me if I am wrong. So, after the little ones had called me, and I reached out to my friend to tell her what had happened, a few days later I got a call. (I don’t know how the little ones got around the gatekeeper/handler) but it left a very disturbing message on our recorder. My sweet hubby, came home at lunch & played the message when I was out. He was incredulous and very disturbed. (Poor man, he was dealing with me & my screaming nightmares at that leg of our marriage)
The message from “whatever” part that was calling me was threatening & furious.
Making threats to harm *Sally* and telling me to back off.
Perhaps evil or her parents had programed her with this part, I don’t know. She was raised by people, yes parents, who were satanic worshipers. I know this sounds crazy…
Luckily, I knew the therapist that my friend eventually went to see and I called her for advice. She calmly explained what steps I needed to take.
It really breaks my heart that the church is so deaf & dumb & irresponsible, or may I say, ignorant on the reality that people/children can split. It is such a mysterious wonder, a saving grace for the innocents who just cannot bear the terror & agony that evil subjects little hearts too.
Yikes… does that answer your question?
Yes, Amos, leading well means that the elders at least meet the minimum biblical qualifications for oversight. While it is true that there are a host of unqualified elders and “ministers of righteousness” within our churches fleecing the flock—this ubiquitous assumption of false authority does not negate our biblical directive regarding the honor we are to give our good and faithful servants who labor in the study, preaching and teaching of Scripture among us.
My friend, for those who are doing it well—this type of ministry is quite time-intensive.
I’m not at all denying that there are unworthy elders ministering over all sorts of houses of bondage. I’m just challenging you, Amos, not to deny that Scripture does direct us to provide for those elders who are indeed worthy.
So, Yes, assuming that these men are completely qualified and serving blessedly they do deserve some remuneration for their labor.
Gail, You said this:
You, sister, are blessed with a gift. Wow. As I was watching comments come in behind the scenes in Word Press, I didn’t realize I was only seeing the top paragraphs and I finally figured out that I was missing complete comments and had to see what you guys were talking about. This conversation has blessed the socks off me. You are right – few understand dissociation.
Interesting, Gail. Thanks.
Fyi: handlers (are different than programmers) they basically “handle” the programmed asset. Handlers are outside perps. The young woman who acted as her handler at the time was her lesbian girlfriend. I fear if this handler was a man I would have (in my then immaturity and anger) got violent with him. But I was raised never to touch a woman—so I stayed safely out of jail by not laying a hand on her.
Gate keepers are generally inside alters often with demonic overlays. When someone uses this term I immediately suspect we’re dealing with a structured system of alters, someone who’s a victim of severe trauma-based programming.
Trauma-based mind control (which it is popularly called) is reportedly big in the intelligence and military cults. The science of this level of dissociation is a state secret. The DSMs and University teachings on dissociation are essentially screens to mask something more horrifying than the average person would ever be able to believe.
Praise God saints (is that better), Well I would love to be the test dummy, however I’m going out of town, won’t be back until Sunday afternoon. However I went over all of what y’all are saying would love to participate and give my two cents. (smile) Hello Gary luv ya. You too monax and the rest of ya. Keep me in prayer that I have a safe trip with my wife to see my son run at the pomona meet. see you when I get back. Bro. Lee in-Christ
By the way, Bible does not teach tithing in the new testament. God speed
Monax- you shared: ‘Sad story: “Half my life ago i received a phone call from a beloved friend a thousand miles away. it was her little girl alter who had called me crying for help. so i hopped on a plane and flew to see her. i believed if i were given just a half hour alone with her i might have been successful in bringing my friend out of her haze. but her handler wouldn’t allow me a moment alone with her. after i attempted for over 36 hours—unsuccessfully—to connect with her”
I assume that her little girl- despite her alter- knew & felt the effort you made on her behalf… Because Love & Kindness is never wasted… However, it is the conundrum of the already but not yet… All of this is the Lord’s work, we, us, and others, are His hands & feet to love & to simply listen to the abused, the broken, because of where we have traveled. We don’t have to fix. That is His job, and fix is the wrong word, because He doesn’t fix, Christ understands, because there is no searching of His understanding…
“Why do you complain, Jacob?
Why do you say, Israel,
“My way is hidden from the Lord;
my cause is disregarded by my God”?
Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The Lord is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
Love to you Monax…
Enjoy your weekend with family, Bro. Lee!
Also, everyone, please pray for me. I’ve got a family event tomorrow that’s gonna be a tad difficult for me. It’s me grandmother’s memorial service. And now with my grandmother having gone on to be with the LORD, I’m not all that willing anymore to “play” family with my mother. This Xmas was difficult. She crossed some lines again, and I feel like for the sake of my own health—I need some space from her for a time. So that’s what’s up with me.
I will pray for you… You have insight & knowing in your knower that you do not have to play family to your mum… To thy own self be true, then thou cannot be false to to another.. Do what you feel in your gut is right! Holding you in prayer as you endure loss of your grandmum & possible misunderstanding.
Honestly Julie, I am perplexed & without answers, I only know how heartbreaking it is for those who have suffered from not being heard or understood because they have dissociated… Bless You Julie for allowing & inviting these difficult & often misunderstood discussions…
Monax- Please bear with me. I was a babe in the woods, when I begun to listen & hear how some were experiencing with D.I.D…. Just read your comment and explanations on D.I.D.
All I can say is: i don”t know all the correct terms- all i know is the sadness, & horror, that these precious ones have experienced…
Monax, I hear you. We have much in common. I pray God gives you wisdom and freedom from false guilt. It’s tough when we have to “play family”.
Monax, I’m sorry for your loss.
Just trying to read through lots that I’ve missed on this thread. Wanted to note that Monax, your act of flying out to see your friend in hopes of helping her was such an act of love. Though she may not have ever understood what you did, I want to thank you for the incredible gesture. That’s a Jesus move.
Katie, Wish I would have said what you did, “an act of love, a Jesus move”
Perfect.
monax
I’m sorry for your loss. And NOT being able to feel comfortable playing family.
I understand, at least a little, what you’re going thru. In my “natural” family None wanted to talk about Jesus. Over a few years I stopped drinking, smoking and cursing – God just took away the desire to do these things – Now both parents were functional alcoholics – My mother constantly complained about my fathers drinking – But she was very angry with me when I stopped and my family wanted me to see a shrink when I told them Jesus had healed my back. NO family affaires were NOT much fun…
You have a blessed weekend – anyway…
And – Who Knows – there might be someone there who needs some LOVE.
Some words of encouragement – Someone who needs to be understood.
I was the only one in the family who got saved. Out of all the kids who were drugging, sleeping with anything that moved, blowing off their high end education, burning through inheritance money, I was the only one who changed (by God’s grace) and didn’t do those things. I worked hard, got my degree, stayed clean, and tried very hard to love them while they spit in my face … literally. It’s been 30 years, and I’m still the pariah of the family.
When we had the grand babies, and did whatever the other family members wanted (within reason, but on their schedule and what they liked,) we had decade of manageable relationships. However, once our mother reached her later years, she was filled with so many regrets that she began acting out and blaming me for everything. I guess I am a safe target because I won’t fight dirty. But it’s gotten to the point that we have to now protect our kids.
As I look back, it’s no surprise that I ended up in an authoritarian church where I thought things were safe, ordered in their boxes, predictable. I needed what I thought was safety. But I was wrong and now I see. The good news is that I can detect the safe people much better these days. And by “safe” I mean someone who isn’t hell bent on my destruction, or those who will crush me if I’m in their way with a smile on their face, pronouncing it’s all for Jesus …
I had a “trigger” the other day and my more gracious speech is missing for now.
Thank you church for your thoughts and prayers. I’m also thankful—Amos, Katie, Gail—for the sharing of your stories.
I’m home now, my family event is over. It was a most beautiful memorial service and I sat with some wonderful people at lunch. I feel spent—yet have a good measure of peace, joy and gladness. Watching golf now with a dark and tasty Belgian beer.
So you know: My Grandmother was a most beautiful and godly woman. She was one of my best friends too. And although I can no longer pick up the phone and connect with her in that way, I do believe she’s “looking down” on me and can hear the words I speak to her.
It’s really no loss. She was 93. It was her time to go. And now she’s with the LORD and Grandpa and the rest—and in way now I feel more spiritually connected to her than before (for she has UNDERSTANDING now). Her presence is with me.
I considered not going to the memorial service. . . just heading over to the country club where we’d be doing lunch. So I was in no hurry to get there, but somehow I pulled up to the mausoleum just shortly after the service began.
I sat in the back in a big chair the director pulled up for me. After about ten minutes of sitting there I had to get up and walk away. I’m assuming my niece saw me slip out and alerted her mom, because my sister found me in a marbled alcove and asked if I was ok. I shrugged and smiled with tears in my eyes, “Yeah, I’m ok.” So I gave her a kiss and a hug.
As she hugged me I began to cry. I said, “I’m ok. It’s healthy to cry.” Then I told her how it was difficult for me being there “with mom and all.” [My sister, btw, hasn’t “played” family with our mom for twenty years.] I told her it wasn’t just mom, but a whole perfect storm of issues I was crying about.
And then there was a moment when I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary, I embrace them. I felt an overwhelming sorrow fill my heart—a deep utter sadness over the brokenness of relationships, the brokenness of families, the brokenness of my own beautiful broken f***ed up god blessed life. I sobbed for a moment.
I am thankful for the opportunities to weep. And while I sobbed, my friends, I will tell you I also cried for Alex, for Paul, for Gayle. Alex Grenier has been constantly on my heart and mind. I pray for him continually. I weep even now as I write this. And they are glad tears—as much as these are glad words. For my mourning even now is a dancing—and my words are glad to have found YOU. . . to have found UNDERSTANDING
***JA edited
i weep
I am now weeping with you Monax, (and as you know) Jesus is experiencing your heart, and co mingling his holy tears with yours, for we have not an high priest which cannot be touched. Such tenderness and sympathy has our Great High Priest.
true
Monax,
I bet you are going to miss her, she sounds wonderful. I really loved this: And now she’s with the LORD and Grandpa and the rest—and in way now I feel more spiritually connected to her than before (for she has UNDERSTANDING now). Her presence is with me.
That is beautiful, my mom died in August and I don’t feel connected to her, but I do ask the Lord to tell her I miss her.
And this was pure glory: “And then there was a moment when I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary, I embrace them. I felt an overwhelming sorrow fill my heart—a deep utter sadness over the brokenness of relationships, the brokenness of families, the brokenness of my own beautiful broken f***ed up god blessed life. I sobbed for a moment.”
That is where I started crying…You really know how to share from your heart. Thank-You for you. Thank-you for the way you write.
Ahhh, Yes. I made You cry!
=]
Nah. I don’t really miss her. I looked in on her and cared for her after Grandpa passed, while she was still here in Pittsburgh. But that was over a decade ago before she moved up w/ her daughter in Cape Elizabeth. I missed her then, but I presently don’t. With Grandma presently in heaven I feel—by some measure of faith—that I have greater access to her now.
David – What an emotional day for you. I’m so sorry that you will no longer have the precious relationship with your grandmother on earth, but rejoice that you know she is home. You’re right – the broken families, the pain, the mourning, your family, Alex’s family, so many families who have been affected by abuse – - it’s all so very sad. Thank you for your transparency here, brother. It’s difficult and beautiful because you’re right, they are healthy tears. hugs to you!
thanks ja. .
it was a good day. .
monax
David – Thanks for the up-date.
This was a real blessing…
“I couldn’t help but to sob. I don’t mind these moments—they’re necessary,
I embrace them.”
Amen…
They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.
Psalm 126:5
monax
David – You might already know this…
I just looked up the meaning, in Hebrew, of your name – David.
And – From your up-dates, and other writings…
It seems you are a living living example of your – Name. – Go figure…
David – in Strongs is – #01732 – daw-veed’ – From the same as 01730; – “loving.”
David – in Thayers is – “beloved”
David – in the NAS 95 is – “beloved one”
And – I can hear Jesus saying…
… I have found *David*…
a man after mine own heart,
which shall fulfil all my will.
Acts 13:22
Because *David* did that which was right in (My Eyes.) the eyes of the LORD,
and turned not aside from any thing that He (“I Am.”) commanded him
all the days of his life…
1 Kings 15:5
I Jesus… I am the root and the offspring of *David*…
Rev 22:16
“Ahhh, Yes. I made You cry!”
=]
Monax, Not sure how to take that. I’m not offended just curious. Hard to read between the lines on internet. Tears indeed are cleansing.
Monax, sorry for your loss. May pleasant memories fill your heart and mind. May God’s peace surround you.
ohhh goodness! now i see how that might inflect. so sorry, Gail. so often i wish i could go back and edit my words here. i only meant to express a recognition of the power of words.
fwiw, You and others make me cry with your words, your stories, your encouragements and such here.
Sacred Gail—i only meant to express my warmest regards. .
=]
and to express my recognition that i know you understand. .
thank you Tina. .
and Yes, Amos, i’ve endeavored from childhood to live up to my beloved name sake… Ohhh how I ever want to live as a man after God’s own heart. . and slay lions and bears and goliaths along the way. . =]
Its all good. I hear you. I often wish for that edit button also. Thank-you for answering
I would have been pounded by ex pastor for asking… You know that drill.
I know how much gets lost in translation on internet- not being able to hear the tone of voice and all.
Ooo my goodness! Even in face to face speech there’s sometimes a lot that get’s lost in translation. .
Katie
I can relate – Sounds very familiar…
“tried very hard to love them while they spit in my face … literally.
It’s been 30 years, and I’m still the pariah of the family.”
Well – I missed the spit part – but – 30 years and counting…
AAAHH – Yes – a pariah – an outcaste… I know what that means – Ouch!!!
And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:36
“They” – did NOT tell me – my own family would be my foe…
….. When I signed up for this gig.
“They”- did NOT tell me – Jesus came to bring division…
….. And – there shall be five in one house divided, three against two.
….. Or, in my case – Many, ALL, against one…
“They” – told me I’d be the head and NOT the tail…
“They” – told me… – Wow – did I ever mis-understand – “They” – Then…
And much agreement when you say…
“The good news is that I can detect the safe people much better these days.”
Me too – Now when “They” begin to speak – my Strange B. S. Meter sounds an alarm.
And that – Strange B. S. stands for – Strange Belief Systems…
And – I have NO place else to go – Only Jesus has the words of Eternal Life.
Thank you Jesus…
Amos or anyone. . do you know of Walter Wangerin, Jr’s book _Mourning into Dancing_? In it he asks, Where is there life without relationship?
It was in reading him that I first began to more clearly understand the relational mystery and meaning of life and death.
Wangerin breaks it down like this:
For this is what Death is: Death is always suffered as separation. Because this is what life is: Life is always experienced in relationship. When the significant relationship breaks… we die a death right there.
And here is Wangerin’s take on grief:
[C]onsider how often grief overtakes us and bewilders us precisely because we don’t understand either the sadness or the source—don’t even know its name. It is always better to know its name, infinitely better to understand the process that shall continue to involve us, or else we will (like children) resist and fight as if against an enemy. In fact, grief is not an enemy. It hurts, to be sure. But it is the hurt of healing. Grief is the grace of God within us, the natural process of recovery for those who have suffered death, exactly as the slash in my arm, with scabs and pain and itchings, healed. Grief is itself the knitting of wounded souls, the conjoining again of brokenness.
Yes, there is an enemy stalking about, one so close to grief that it is easy to mistake them. But that’s all the more reason to name and distinguish the two: not grief, _death_ is the enemy!
It’s a good book especially for those who are grieving the death of relationship.
Gail,
Walter Wangerin Jr writes in such a way he makes me—a grown man—cry!
Walter Wangerin Jr is both a pastor and a story-teller. .
monax
I have NOT read the book – But…
In the Bible – I can see where Death often speaks about separation from God/Jesus…
God warned Adam and Eve about the fruit – About Knowing Good and Evil….
“for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die.*”
But – When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of that infamous tree…
They did NOT die physically… They were * Separated from the Garden*…
And – There was a “Separation in their Relationship” with God.
So, are we being warned about dying?
Or, being warned about (Separation?) from God?”
And how (God restoring the Relationship?) is a gift from God.
For the wages of sin is death; (Separation?)
but the gift of God
is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (God restoring the Relationship?)
Ro 6:23
For as in Adam all die, (Separation?)
even so in Christ shall
all be made alive. (God restoring the Relationship?)
1 Cor 15:22
1 Cor 15:56
The sting of death is sin; (Separation?)
and the strength of sin is the law. (Separation?)
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are *NOT under the law,* (Separation?)
but *Under Grace. (God restoring the Relationship?)
Rom 6:14
Here is a simple rule of thumb for me to know where I’m living…
Under Law – (Separation?)
Or – Under Grace. – (God restoring our Relationship?)
When I Focus on **self** – I’m living “Under the Law.” (Separation?)
(What is “Amos“ doing? – Good or Evil?) Hmmm? That pesky tree again.
When I Focus on *Jesus* – I’m living “Under Grace.” (God restoring our Relationship?)
(What is “ Jesus “ doing?- Forgiving, cleansing, showing mercy.) Tree of “Life?”
His Blood “cleanses me” from “ALL” my sin. Jesus forgives me.
His mercies are “NEW” every morning. And Jesus remembers my sin no more.
That means I don’t have to remember my sin either. It’s gone.
Thank you Jesus…
Yes – for me, “Death” in the Bible often speaks about…
“Separation in my Relationship” with God.
And – “Grace ” in the Bible often speaks about…
“God restoring our Relationship.”
And I’m glad Jesus knows how to accomplish that…
He makes very tall women cry, too. I’m a mess after reading that, David. Thankfully I don’t have mascara on right now.
I read Mourning into Dancing so many years ago however, my aging brain has forgotten most of what was written… Beautiful stuff… Heading out to brunch now. Hugs!
Exactly, Amos. .
Considering further the theme of death as separation:
As Adam and Eve experienced two deaths—first a spiritual death, then a physical death, so did our Lord Jesus die two deaths that day on the cross (( after crying out ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me’. . . . He then uttered a loud cry and breathed His last indicating first a spiritual, then a physical death )).
[[ side note: we might also consider the cross of Christ as both a tree of life and a tree of death (i.e., the tree of knowledge of good and evil) ]]
The spiritual death Adam and Eve experienced the day of their disobedience was God’s removal of His living Presence from their spiritual lives. For the LORD God had emphasized to Adam: ‘in the day you eat of [the tree of knowledge] you shall surely die.’ (( In the Hebrew text there is a repetition of the word for death—mot tamut—which literally reads: ‘in dying you will die.’ This verbal construction is academically called an infinitive absolute, and is used for emphasis, indicating here not only a certainty of death—‘you will surely die’—but also, as I read it, that one type of death will be followed by another.
We read in Isaiah 59:2, ‘Your sins have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you.’ This is the consequence of rebellion against God—spiritual death and separation from God.
The physical death Adam and Eve eventually experienced was a removal of their spirits from their bodies. James 2:26 describes how ‘the body without the spirit is dead.’ And Solomon in Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us what happens at death: ‘The dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.’
Simply: death is experienced as separation. Spiritual death is separation from God, and physical death is separation of spirit from body.
Ever since the Fall (with the exception of Jesus) everyone born physically into this world is born spiritually dead—spiritually separated from God. And that is why we must be born of the Spirit to have eternal life.
‘For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive’ (1 Corinthians 15:22). ‘For the consequences of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord’ (Romans 6:23).
So What does it mean to have eternal life?
Jesus in a prayer to the Father put it this way: ‘And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent’ (John 17:3).
Essentially, spiritual life is defined in terms of knowing, in terms of possessing an eternal relationship with the Most High God of the universe.
After Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree something happened: their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness—their decision to rebel against the will of God left them uncovered.
So they tried to cover their nakedness with fig leaves, Right? But this could never do. The fig leaves as coverings would quickly dry and shrivel up in no time.
God, however, clothed them with the skins of an animal—meaning there was at the very beginning of human time a blood sacrifice. There was a price to be paid for the transgression of Adam and Eve, and the killing of an innocent animal foreshadowed the mysterious and amazing way God would, in time, use to forgive and reconcile man back to Himself.
The skins of an animal worn over Adam and Eve’s naked bodies were constant reminders of how their covering involved the sacrifice of an innocent animal. The clothing of sacrifice itself was a sign of God’s future provision in Christ.
It may be interesting to note that the Hebrew word for atonement—kaphar—means ‘to cover, to cover over.’
Because of what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross, our sins are covered, we are clothed in His righteousness, and we are now at-one again with God. ‘For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God’ (2 Cor 5:21).
We refer to this transaction on the cross as our substitutionary atonement.
Here’s the gist of our English word atonement: what was once separated by death is now in a state of AT-ONE-MENT.
To be AT-ONE is to be WHOLE in the truest sense of SHALOM
Amen
Here (from Ps. 17:15) is how David ends one of his prayers:
As for me
in righteousness
I will behold Your face,
I will be satisfied
when I awake in Your likeness.
This is also my prayer of identity and desire to the One whose I am.
. .
(( anxious to hear how Bro. Lee’s weekend went ))
Praise God saints, Had a beautiful time watching my son run at the Pomona (College track meet in Claremont), It was my first time ever seeing him run. He was so happy that I seen him run he got to excited and he pulled his hamstring. He’s looking forward to his conference meet in two weeks. ( I’ll be there). Well I tried to read all of what your were talking about, it is too deep for me. However I will read it again. Made it home safe, Thank you Jesus. Thank you monax for your comments. Love brother Lee.
glad to hear of your beautiful time, Lee.
i used to run. . never pulled a hamstring, though. . what does this mean? will your son be able to compete in the conference meet in two weeks?
David
what are his events?
granted, Lee, the discussion of trauma based dissociation is both difficult and deep—not a conversation for most people.
Monax, Amos, Gail, All,
Don’t know if it will speak to anyone other than myself, but I have for several days been chewing a bit on how Paul, in 2 Cor 1:8-9, wrote to his friends at Corinth about trouble, and being pressed out of measure and above strength, and of DESPAIRING even of life. And then he says “We had the sentence of death IN OURSELVES.” (ESV omits the “in ourselves,” but it is right there in KJV, and also in the Greek.) What does Paul mean by despairing of life and having “the sentence of death IN OURSELVES?” Prompted by N.T. Wright, I suspect that Paul himself had suffered a mental breakdown, that he had descended into a black depression beyond mere the anxiety that came from an expectation of physical death. I strongly suspect that, as Paul was writing these things, he was emerging from his own private shadow of the valley of death, his own dark night of the soul. Even so, Paul’s experience maybe flowed more from mere physical circumstances as opposed to the kinds of personal, emotional, spiritual, trauma described in these comments.
Now, please bear with me while I depart a good bit from what the theologians tell us. In the moments before his death Jesus cried out, anguished at His separation from His Father. However, I have come to believe that Jesus’ Separation from His Father (and ours) actually took place in Gethsemane. I believe that it was in Gethsemane that He took our sins upon Himself, that this is when He became separated from the Father, and that this, therefore, is when he effectively died for our sins. How else can the sweating of blood be explained? Jesus was no coward sweating blood from mere fear of crucifixion. I believe he suffered the trials, the mocking, the rejection, the humiliation, the entire Passion and crucifixion in utter separation from His Father and ours.
Here is what I am getting at: I believe that those of you who have suffered the kinds of trials and traumas and interpersonal separations and internal separations/dissociations and all the rest as described in these comments have more nearly shared in the death of Jesus in Gethsemane (or wherever it actually took place) than in the traumas of Paul. Indeed, it may be that I am too quick to say that Paul, like you, knew the valley of the shadow of death or the dark night of the soul.
Inasmuch as I have not been where some of you have been and still are are, I fear that my words are but spewing gravel. I know that I haven’t a clue. Yet, maybe there is comfort in being reminded of what you already know: that Jesus Himself shared, and I believe still does share, in your suffering. Nay, I see that you know His comfort firsthand. How else to explain how each of you knows so well how to comfort unless it be that you comfort with the comfort with which you have been comforted by Him? I stand in awe. You have more than once forced my tears to well up.
Jesus weeps. Indeed.
Norris,
I committed a great blunder by failing to name you specifically in the greeting in my previous comment. I am sorry. You too have suffered, although you have not gone into detail in describing the pain. My prayer is that He will protect you from pain unless and until He knows that the time has come. I think that I see that it is your time to celebrate, though of course you would know better than I what He holds for you in these days.
There are some special people who haven’t experienced some of life’s biggest traumas, yet have an amazing capacity to care, to want to understand, and to support. You are one of those rare people, Gary. I’ve seen Craig Vick do the same here. That is a gift. Thank you, Gary.
Julie Anne,
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
Yes monax, He will run in the next two weeks. His main event is the 100 yard dash also he runs the 200 yard sprint. I have some opinion on the matter, however I’m trying to get a better grasp on what’s being said. All my thoughts are what the scripture has to say about it. As Gary W. expressed paul may have been in the same shoes, however we find in later scripture he didn’t remain there. Through the Spirit of God he conquered and move on. What a lot of people didn’t understand about paul was he had to abandon all what he knew before in Christ. Therefore becoming born again, he also was a little child. He had to learn faith, he had to experience trails and tribulations, so that he could mature in his faith. When paul experience the thing he did the Spirit of God was right there to comfort and teach him how to apply it in his life for the good. In real estate it’s one word ” location, location, location. The bible also has one word ” application, application, application. It’s what we learn and how we apply it to our everyday lives. That others may use it are grow by it. I know. I missed the point.
Gary wrote: In the moments before his death Jesus cried out, anguished at His separation from His Father. However, I have come to believe that Jesus’ Separation from His Father (and ours) actually took place in Gethsemane. I believe that it was in Gethsemane that He took our sins upon Himself, that this is when He became separated from the Father, and that this, therefore, is when he effectively died for our sins. How else can the sweating of blood be explained? Jesus was no coward sweating blood from mere fear of crucifixion. I believe he suffered the trials, the mocking, the rejection, the humiliation, the entire Passion and crucifixion in utter separation from His Father and ours.
i’ve never considered this! wow, i’ve got to process this for a time.
thank you, Gary. good stuff! wow.
the sweating of blood could have been in anticipation of his separation (that’s how i’ve understood it). . but i’m processing
good word, Lee.
Gary W, With one eye on the Masters and just scanning your words, after my hubby & I get dinner, I want to take time to ponder before I respond- but now am cheering for the Aussie through tears. Bless you.
yeah, i’m watching the Masters… i’m wanting the Aussie to take it!
UNBELIEVABLE! Adam Scott
going to dinner- but Monax- can you believe that playoff! YES!
First, I wish I would had more time to respond to today. I feel like I missed church here, well-what church should be when the body comes together, one with a psalm, another with a spiritual melody…( I know I am misquoting Eph) but the words that have been shared here are music to my heart. Yet, I feel I am late to the party.
O, Monax, Norris, GaryW, Julie Anne, Amos & All you guys are so freakin amazing…
I guess where I will start is with Gary W. comment:
“What does Paul mean by despairing of life and having “the sentence of death IN OURSELVES?” Prompted by N.T. Wright, I suspect that Paul himself had suffered a mental breakdown, that he had descended into a black depression beyond mere the anxiety that came from an expectation of physical death. I strongly suspect that, as Paul was writing these things, he was emerging from his own private shadow of the valley of death, his own dark night of the soul.”
What you write here Gary… for lack of a better word, is mind blowing, for me. I have never heard such a thing. But, I was indoctrinated by the happy, clappy, be perfect, and always be victorious in Jesus, shape up or ship club (though I have spent enough time in the desert to know now the very word victory does imply there was a battle)
How comforting or reassuring it would have been to have heard something like this when I was in the club… Not because I am glad that the great Apostle Paul suffered such sorrow, but because most Christians that I associated with in the past, had answers, hadn’t succumbed to depression, didn’t have any anger, never struggled with doubt, had plenty of joy, and a had a direct line to God and knew what He wanted to say to me through them. ugh.
My heart was broke by Christians who were, well frankly, mean spirited. They were so much better than I was at keeping all the rules. And though I had an other worldly conversion at 28 years old where Christ or maybe I should say His presence just showed up & loved on me for a few weeks. (Not long after I attempted to take my life)
I put that precious memory behind me, because I had now been taught the bible, and His love was to be earned, according to my behavior, my testimony, by how much I served in the church, how much I gave in tithes, prayed & on & on. I bet you guys know what I am saying…
I left the church at 48 years old, dead to my first love, for many reasons, but I was pretty much convinced that God had had it with me because of all my struggles.
There is agony from life, but the agony of feeling rejected by Jesus was a dark night in my soul for years.
So, so sorry guys, if I went on too much about myself… I am just bowled over to learn that Paul possibly had a dark night, or breakdown… perhaps I am in good company- aye?
I need to get to sleep now. I have a V.I.P. coming early in the morning. She is 2 years old, my grandchild, a perfect gift from above to this grandma’s heart.
Again, I hope I didn’t go off to much here, don’t want to be a broken record…
“Inasmuch as I have not been where some of you have been and still are are, I fear that my words are but spewing gravel. I know that I haven’t a clue. Yet, maybe there is comfort in being reminded of what you already know: that Jesus Himself shared, and I believe still does share, in your suffering.
O, but Gary, You do have a clue, and your compassionate insight or revelation, is anything but gravel… I echo Julie’s words… Thank-You, you have given me much to consider.
Gail, I think I may need to issue posting rules like this one: no apologizing for posting comments about yourself. That is what this place is for. When I read your story, I automatically see if I can relate with your experience. That is how we connect. So….if you don’t tell your story, we won’t know that we connect.
Have fun with your grandchild!
You, Julie, are a astute gatekeeper for us/me….
Hopefully I will grow in the grace & knowledge of our Lord Jesus… I believe in sharing from the heart, HOWEVER, I don’t want to be a victim or a narcissist by always bringing the conversation back to my story…
Gary W’s comment just blew me away… As, did, a few others. I know I sift all this through my own lens, perhaps that is where I need to be for now.
Nonetheless, I appreciate the freedom, love & grace you offer here. xo
monax
WOW – Like much you’ve wriiten @ APRIL 14, 2013 @ 11:04 AM…
So much to comment on – So little space, time.
Hmmm? Never thought about this one – But – I like this alot.
“we might also consider the cross of Christ as both a tree of life and a tree of death.”
Yes – “‘in dying you will die.” – But never saw it as TWO deaths – good stuff – Thanks.
Yes – “Your sins have separated you from your God.” – Death – Spiritual Seperation.
Yes – “even so in Christ all shall be made alive” – A free gift.
Yes – “spiritual life is defined in terms of knowing, …an eternal relationship. – Jesus.
————
Question – you write – “Ever since the Fall.” – Which is a “Common” “Tradition.”
But – In the Bible – How do “WE” know there was a “Fall?” Who taught “US” that?
Does the Bible say Adam and Eve “Fell?” Or, had a “Fall?” “Fall” from what?
Or, is this those Pesky “Doctrines” and “Traditions of Man?” “WE” are warned about?
And – In case you’re wondering – When I capitalize “US” and “WE” – I’m thinking – the Body of Christ – the Church – the Ekklesia – the Called Out Ones – You – Me – ALL who have put their faith in Jesus – “WE.”
Because “WE” is one in Christ.
————
Jesus said…
“the words” that I speak are Spirit and they are Life…
monax
And again @ APRIL 14, 2013 @ 11:43 AM…
Yes – “there was at the very beginning of human time “a blood” sacrifice.”
Yes – “the killing of an innocent animal foreshadowed the mysterious and amazing way God would, in time, use to forgive and reconcile man back to Himself.”
Yes – “The clothing of sacrifice itself was a sign of God’s future provision in Christ.”
Yes – “atonement—kaphar—means ‘to cover, to cover over.’
1 – The Garden of Eden – Innocent Blood is shed to “Cover” our sin.
————
And again – In Egypt – There is a “Blood Sacrifice” of an innocent animal.
God brings 10 Plagues on Egypt. When Pharaoh, who’s heart is hardened by God, refuses to set His People Free. The tenth plague is “the Angel of Death ” will “Passover” and the first born of all Egypt will die. The Death sentence is Given. – For the Israelites to be protected from Death – “The wages of sin is Death” – An innocent lamb, an unblemished lamb is slain. Innocent Blood is shed…
Exodus 12:21-23
…take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
…take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason,
Strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason…
For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and
when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,
the LORD will pass over the door…
2 – In Egypt – Innocent Blood is shed and God’s people are protected from Death.
————
And again – In the Wilderness – There is a “Blood Sacrifice” of an innocent animal.
Lev 4:1-6
…a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering…
…the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock’s blood,
and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation…
3 – In the Wilderness – Innocent Blood is shed for a sin offering.
————
Then when John the baptist, saw Jesus coming, he said…
Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29
…and “The Blood” of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
In whom we have redemption through “His Blood,” the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:14
Thank your Jesus – For “Your Blood.” – Worthy is the Lamb
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=K7WZYPNX
Oh the Blood of Jesus
B. L. O. O. D.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.eath
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.efects
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.isobedience
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur D.eceitfulness
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes
Our Doubts – Our Dark Deed’s – Our Demons – Our Damnation
Our Defiance – Our Demands – Our Darkness – Our Delusions – Our Desires
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
B.ountiful L.ove O.vercomes O.ur
Delusions – Distrust – Despair – Derision – Despising – Desolation – Difficulties
Disappointments – Deadness – Doublemindedness – Dryness – Distresses – Divisions
by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
O the Blood of Jesus
“O the blood
Crimson love
Price of life’s demand
Shameful sin
Placed on Him
The Hope of every man
O the blood of Jesus washes me
O the blood of Jesus shed for me
What a sacrifice that saved my life
Yes, the blood, it is my victory
Savior Son
Holy One
Slain so I can live
See the Lamb
The great I Am
Who takes away my sin
O the blood of the Lamb
O the blood of the Lamb
O the blood of the Lamb
The precious blood of the Lamb
What a sacrifice
That saved my life
Yes, the blood, it is my victory
O what love
No greater love
Grace, how can it be
That in my sin
Yes, even then
He shed His blood for me”
Hi GaryW, Norris Lee, Monax, Amos, Julie Anne and any others who are reading…
I am trying to write a short note to a dear sweet 80 year old man whom my husband & I befriended last Sept. in a nursing rehab home. My husband was getting P.T. after having his hip replaced and the man we met was recovering from a knee replacement. Unfortunately for our new friend, his knee became infected and he was readmitted to the hospital & spent another four months in a wound clinic. He finally came home in mid Jan. and was making progress.
Last week, we thought he had a stroke, but after Cat scan & MRI he was diagnosed with: Glioblastoma multiforme “it is the deadliest and most common form of malignant brain tumor. Even when aggressive multimodality therapy consisting of radiotherapy, chemotherapy, and surgical excision is used, median survival is only 12–17 months.” His family and Dr.s thought it would be best for him not to have the surgery so he is home now with palliative care.
I am asking for counsel and prayers from you guys. Our friend is a Christian, but he is depressed, rightfully so, but he said to me yesterday that he wished he had my husband’s strength & attitude. He is said he was sorry that he wasn’t a strong man like my husband. Without going into great detail, my husband was 5’11 when we married 25 years ago, A.S. has bent him over to 5’1. He has been through so many surgeries & suffering, came very close to death three times, but he has never been diagnosed with a death sentence.
I told our friend, that my husband & I had watered our couch with tears when he was in horrid pain after 3 back surgeries in NYC, and that he is be strong now because he has recovered from his surgeries. I shared with my husband what he said to me & he is going to tell him about his pain, depression & struggle when we see him.
Do you think I am on the right track to tell him that even Jesus was reluctant to suffer & die: Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
My heart is sad. If I could have had my picked choosing a dad, this guy would have been my first choice. He is funny, gentle & kind.
Maybe I should say nothing. And just be with him. We will be seeing him on Wed. morning. I want to comfort him. What would you you say to him? Thank-You for letting me pick your brains, hearts. Please pray if you don’t have any wisdom to share with me.
pls. read past all my typo’s
Gail, I cleaned it up a bit. It’s funny, but I missed them when reading it – - but that’s because I was too into your story (and I think most people here would be, too).
You have such a sweet heart. I love that you and your husband will be seeing him and that your husband wants to share his experience of pain/depression. That’s good because he has walked in those shoes and can relate. People who are depressed often turn inward and so being heard is so important. Maybe play it by ear with primarily listening. It is by listening that you can really tell where his heart is. I also think it would be cool to tell him that you secretly wished he could have been your father. He would probably be very touched by that.
I look forward to reading what others have to say. And please report back how your visit goes, Gail. I hope you had fun with your grandchild today
Though I will share some thoughts, let me first and foremost suggest that you hardly need advice. Having suffered, you and your husband know how to comfort others who suffer. You need only to be yourselves. Don’t force anything. Your presence with your friend will be enough. The gift of your presence will be the one gift Jesus earnestly desired of his friends in Gethsemane; you will be granting the very gift Jesus’ friends refused Him. I believe that from your presence with your friend, all else that is good and necessary will flow. It may be that in knowing and sensing and sharing in your friend’s pain, in feeling what he is feeling and going through, you will lift his burden just enough so that he can carry what is his to carry. He will know and be encouraged by the recognition that you do not have mere sympathy, which is only feeling sorry. No, he will know that your empathy, your empathetic identification, is an actual entering into his life and its trials, and in this he may even find a quiet joy. Remember that, though you may play part in lifting his burden, it is ultimately his, not yours, to carry. You could not fully carry it for him if you tried. I need not remind you to weep with those who weep. I need not suggest that you, maybe, hold his hand or touch his shoulder–if he is receptive. Hoot! I don’t know. Throw your arms around him if it seems right and natural. Unless you find him in a jocular mood, do not try to cheer him up. That would be a scraping of fingernails across a very dry chalk board. While you are with your friend, don’t try to think what to do. It will just come. You will know whether and how to talk about Jesus. Jesus will be with you. If anything I suggest does not speak to you, if anything seems forced or somehow just not right, ignore it. Go with your own intuition, your own gut. You have already been prepared.
^^^^^Gary nailed it here, Gail. Such a good response, Gary!
Thank-You Gary,
That was such a great reminder, here I was planning ahead, wanting to comfort him with the reminder that even Jesus asked the father if possible…
I can rest in your wise counsel. Thank-You for taking the time to respond.
Just be, and let Gods presence flow back & forth between us.
Julie Anne- I might tell him that! I will be sure to report back. We will see him on Wed. morning, then they are coming here for dinner on Friday…
Playing again today with 2 year old, pure joy in my heart, but back & knees beg to differ.
Gail my prayers will be with you.
I’m so touched by the love and responses you all have for one another.
Gail
Gail, you are precious. I’m blessed, and thankful, to know you.
How cool has this thread been – I look forward every morning to see the gems here.
And I agree with Gary – You’ll know what to do, and when…
It’s Christ “in you” the hope of Glory.
—————-
You said your friend is a Christian.
He might enjoy hearing “you” read “The Word of God” to him. Ask him.
Here is something I do when visiting folks who are sick.
It’s Reading and Praying the Scripture – So everyone can hear you – Out Loud.
Praying the Scriptures is simply taking Bible verses
and turning them into an unending supply of prayers.
When you visit a hospital, instead of asking the patient about the pain and what the doctor has to say, (an answer they repeat over and over again to visitors – Words of pain.) you can suggest that they close their eyes, relax and listen as you read God’s Words of Life to them. I’ve found most folks enjoy being read to. And what better way to show your love and support than to read The Words of the one who truly loves them?
When you visit your friend, or the sick, you can spend thirty or forty minutes reading scripture after scripture on God’s Healing, God’s Mercy and God’s Love and turn them into prayers. Remember, prayer is good medicine. There are no bad side effects. It will be a tremendous blessing for you also, reading and hearing the Word of God out loud. You could also ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in the prayers that you speak. Then it’s fresh and exciting each time because you never know how you’re going to pray. Try it!
Jesus said – The Words that I speak are Spirit and they are Life.
—————-
I’ll leave an example in the next post.
If you like, or anyone here, I’ll email you 10 topics of Scriptures in PDF.
You can print them out – They are in 16 point type, large print…
So, if you want to leave them with your friend, the large print might help.
—————-
God’s Words of Comfort & Healing About
Prayer – Healing – The Word of God – Faith –
- Love – Mercy – Trust – Joy – Forgiveness – Comfort
From The Word of God.
—————-
More coming…
Gail – Everyone
When visiting the sick – anywhere…
Often I’ll spend 30 – 45 minutes just reading and praying the Scriptures.
For me it has been a real blessing – And often, all, can sense His Presence.
For practice, everyone can try the 23rd Psalm.
Psalm 23
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures:
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul:
He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies:
You anoint my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy
shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
—————
And all you have to do is fill in the blanks.
“The LORD is ______’s shepherd; ______ shall not want.
He makes ______ to lie down in green pastures:
He leads ______ beside the still waters.
He restores ______’s soul:
He leads ______ in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.
Yea, though ______ walks through the valley of the shadow of death,
______ will fear no evil: for you are with ______;
your rod and your staff they comfort ______.
You prepare a table before ______ in the presence of ______’s enemies:
you anoint ______’s head with oil; ______’s cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy
shall follow ______ all the days of ______’s life:
and ______ will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.”
————
And remember Jesus has set you free.
You can also be creative and add a little to make it more personal.
The LORD is GAIL’S shepherd; GAIL shall not want.
The Lord God almighty makes GAIL to lie down in green pastures:
Jesus, the Prince of Peace leads GAIL beside the still waters.
Jesus, The Lord our Healer restores GAIL’S soul:
The Holy Spirit will lead GAIL in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.
Yea, though GAIL walks through the valley of the shadow of death,
GAIL will fear no evil: for You, the God of all comfort, is with GAIL,
Your rod and Your staff they comfort GAIL.
You Lord Jesus, prepare a table before GAIL in the presence of her enemies:
Lord, You anoint GAIL’S head with oil; GAIL’S cup is truly overflowing.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow GAIL all the days of her life:
And GAIL will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Psalm 23:1-6.
————–
Gail – Everyone
Just try putting your loved onesname in the blanks – husband, wife, kids. etc.
Ask them to close ther eyes, lean back and relax, take a deep breath, and listen.
Read the 23 Psalm out loud. It only takes a few minutes.
Then read it with their name – and see what happens…
I double dare you…
Love to ALL
A. Amos Love
love101faith@me.com
I agree with Tina, it’s refreshing and healing to see the tender responses on here.
Gail, I agree with Gary that since you do know suffering, you will be a natural at it. In some areas I’ve experienced real suffering, when I find someone who understands I want to hear their story and perspective -and- I want to share mine. It’s all about knowing and being known … understanding and being understood. It’s salve on the wound.
Just yesterday, I got a call from someone I’ve not talked with in 10 years. She and I have many suffering stories in common. We each were genuinely interested in the other and freely shared our own paths we’ve walked. Neither of us had any clue we had talked for 4 hours! But then we only do this every 10 years, so it was like a visit in person.
Gail, I think it will depend upon the the man’s personality as to whether or not he wants to share where he’s at medically. What I find is that if I give them a chance to tell me, they either jump on it or change the subject. I make sure to communicate that we are there for him and whatever he wants to share or not is up to him. Truth is, though, I’ve never met a dying person who didn’t want to tell me in detail what’s going on. Understandably, many people feel uncomfortable talking about death, but the dying usually are desperate to do so.
Just prayed for you, may God use you as His hands, feet, mouth and presence to bring God’s love with skin on to this precious dying saint.
I keep coming back to this thread and smiling at the sweetness here. I’m wondering if I should make a post specifically for this kind of interaction? Would that be helpful? One idea is having a weekly “open blog” thread where people can share whatever they want. Having it posted weekly would help in that the post won’t get buried like this one. Thoughts?
All you precious Saints: Tina, A.Amos Love, Katie, Julie Anne,
My granddaughter is napping, so I have minute to catch up with your thoughts…
From the bottom of my heart, I thank each & everyone here that has shared & prayed. I love the company I am in here, it is the type that I had longed for when I was going to churchprison. It has been so healing to my soul to engage here with people who are tender, wise, open. O, I know we hit a couple of bumps in the road, but the healthy way people modeled it here, was to discuss it.
I was brought to tears over the way forgiveness was asked for, love & acceptance was given. I have wept more over the postings here, than I have wept over the things that life has brought my way this past month. And these are the cleansing kind of tears that open up that vein of tenderness in my heart.
Katie this is so good to know: “Truth is, though, I’ve never met a dying person who didn’t want to tell me in detail what’s going on. Understandably, many people feel uncomfortable talking about death, but the dying usually are desperate to do so.”
I will walk softly with it!
Thank-You, Tina.
Please Amos – I would love to have you e-mail me PDF.
Julie Anne- Yes, I think that would be cool, with a place for prayer requests.
this blew me away, how Gary answered Gail: you hardly need advice. Having suffered, you and your husband know how to comfort others who suffer. You need only to be yourselves. Don’t force anything. Your presence with your friend will be enough. The gift of your presence will be the one gift Jesus earnestly desired of his friends in Gethsemane; you will be granting the very gift Jesus’ friends refused Him.
Gary, can you go more into your reasoning on why you believe the separation between the Father and the Son may have commenced in Gethsemane? (( hinging this on his sweating blood alone, for me, is not enough ))
Amos, i hope to respond to your question of the “Fall” asap. i played along—read out loud and then inserted my loved one’s name. it was a good exercise, and i thank you.
fwiw, ja, i like the intimacy this thread affords us knowing we’re hidden a bit away from the eyes of the rest of the flock. . that’s just the present mood i’m in
David – the thread is not going anywhere. Keep talking
David,
I will be happy to elaborate on what I believe happened in Gethsemane. I won’t be able to do so instantly. My ideas on the matter were planted some 11 years ago when I read something written by John Loren Sandford. It was only later I realized that what Sandford wrote is not universally accepted. I frankly couldn’t tell you what the “accepted” view is. Maybe you could get me started by telling me what your understanding is. Who knows? Maybe I’ll end up changing my mind, though I frankly hope I don’t have to. What I currently think just seems to have a very satisfying fit with what I understand to have been the infinite sacrifice of our Lord on our behalf. More to follow, maybe this evening, but maybe not.
cool, Gary. . i’ll need a few hours to weave something together along the lines of what you and Amos have given me. . hope to have some free time tomorrow. . looking forward to where this discussion is going. . happy for the night to sleep on it. . my most sincere blessing to everyone here. .
monax
Thanks for letting me know you tried “Praying the Scriptures.”
The first time someone showed me how to do it – I thought it was way cool. And they had me put my name in the blanks. When you do that just a few times – A little practice – It becomes second nature. And it is a simple way to show new believers a way of praying for others.
monax
And – I’m looking forward to your answers to the questions about “The Fall.”
“How do “WE” know there was a “Fall?” Who taught “US” that?
Does the Bible say Adam and Eve “Fell?” Or, had a “Fall?” “Fall” from what?”
And a new question – Who are “The Lost?”
And – I mean – In the Bible – Who are “The Lost?”
Because – Jesus did warn “US” about – Commandments of men – Doctrines of men…
And “Traditions of men”- Stuff – NOT found in the Bible – Inventions of man…
Mark7:13
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
monax
I’m also hopeing you’ll answer these questions asked @ APRIL 12, 2013 @ 5:17 PM – When we were discussing Elder/Overseers being paid and you challenged me with…
1 Tim 5:17-18…
“Let the elders who lead well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture say, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
Then you ask…
“Is it not—a la Scripture—our Christian duty to provide for those *good elders* who labor in preaching and teaching? Why should we be against paying *our faithful pastors* and *teachers* for the difficult tasks they’ve been gifted and called by God to do?”
———-
Well, In My experience – And – My undertanding “a la Scripture” – My answer is NO.
Because – “a la Scripture” – I’ve never met an “elder” who qualifies as elder/overseer according to 1 Tim 3:1-6, Titus 1:5-9, and other tuff qualifications.
What I have noticed is congregations, and wanna-be Pastor/Elders, “Ignore” and “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Position” of pastor/elder/overseer.
And, IMO – When someone who claims to be an elder/overeer takes a “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend that is NOT in the Bible – By example – they are NOT good teachers. And do NOT qualify.
That’s why I asked you…
1 – In the Bible, Where does it say an “elder” is a – “pastor?”
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that had the “Title” – pastor?
In the Bible, can you name one “elder” that called them self – pastor?
If there are NO elders called “pastor” in the Bible?
Does this non-biblical pastor still “deserves his wages?”
Amos & All,
Our time with Frank this morning was sweet. Amos, I printed the doc. Ps. 23 prayer with Franks name in it.
After we prayed he expressed how much he appreciated it with moist eyes.
Julie A- I was able to share with Frank how hard my dad was on me, and told him what I had shared earlier about wishing I could have had the choice, that I would have chosen him to be my dad. He told us about how hard his dad was on him, and that he made the decision to never be that way with his children, and that he loved every step of his journey of being a dad.
Lots of other sweet, holy moments together.
All who shared with me, played such a part in helping me to just show up, listen & let God’s love communicate.
Another round of thanks to the body of Christ that I connect with here.
Looking forward to having him & wife to dinner on Friday
Gail
Sweet…
hey peeps—just want to register with y’all that it doesn’t look like i’ll be afforded any free time until maybe Friday. .
glad you’re time with Frank went so sweetly. .
David
David,
Regarding my undertaking to address the question as to when Jesus was forsaken by the Father (whether in Gethsemane as I propose, or not) progress is not what I would have hoped. I expect I will not be able to produce a satisfying and definitive proof text. Rather, I am in pursuit of a narrative that is comprehensive, consistent and coherent. It is rather like a jigsaw puzzle, except that in this puzzle many pieces share the same shape and will fit in multiple locations, only one of which is correct for each piece. All pieces must be used, for comprehensiveness. They must all fit together, for consistency. They must form a picture, for coherence.
To complicate the metaphor, however, it seems that the current undertaking something of a multimedia jigsaw puzzle, if that were possible. To the usual puzzle pieces of Scripture, it appears that it will be necessary to turn to the subordinate contributions of reason (i.e. the objective faculties by which we, among other things, attempt to piece together Scripture), experience (i.e. the subjective faculties, by which we may, among other things, attempt to identify with Jesus in his experience), and tradition (i.e. theology, which I hope to be able to largely eschew, except perhaps to identify positions for which others have advocated).
What I have accomplished so far is the assembly of a 3 column harmony of the Gethsemane accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Although making it easier to follows the Gethsemane events, it is to large to post here. I will need to figure out how to make it useful to the current project.
More to follow.
Gary – If you are trying to get this specifically to David – I can connect you two behind the scenes or figure out a way to post it on the blog if others are interested, too. The formatting available in the comments section is limited, I’m sure. ~ja
“The Fall” is shorthand for the spiritual death Adam and Eve experienced when they rebelled against God and ate of the forbidden fruit. Seems we lacked a simple Scriptural term for the Genesis Three account—for the historic crisis of man being separated from God’s Presence and driven from the Garden of Eden—so the Church at some point adopted “the Fall” as signifier of these realities.
Amos, consider “the Fall” akin to another term we find in our Christian lexicon. As the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible—it nevertheless signifies a Biblical reality. Trinity is shorthand for “the Godhead comprising the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” When we speak of the Fall it is simply an economic way of referencing the events and effects of Genesis Three.
Fall = Genesis Three
[[ Online Etymology Dictionary for “fall”: Old English feallan (class VII strong verb; past tense feoll, past participle feallen) "to fall; fail, decay, die," ]]
Note how our English word “fall” is derived from expressions that mean “to fall; fail, decay, die,”–-all of which transpired on the day of Adam and Eve’s decision to disobey God.
Amos asks, How do “WE” know there was a “Fall?” Who taught “US” that? Does the Bible say Adam and Eve “Fell?” Or, had a “Fall?” “Fall” from what?
The effects of Adam and Eve’s rebellion involved a fall from a state of innocence to that of the knowledge of good and evil. Again, although the word “fall” is not found in the Bible to refer to Genesis Three—it, nevertheless, is essentially a Biblical expression. It indicates Adam and Eve’s downward direction from abiding in the Presence of God to being driven out of His Garden.
Genesis Three marks the division between God and Man—even between heaven and earth.
Where is heaven? we may ask. Well, wherever God is—there is heaven.
So we see this structure to human history (if we are to believe the accounts of Scripture) of Creation—Fall—Redemption. The First Man and his wife were created to be one with God; because of their sin they fell out of proper relationship with Him; yet, God promised a Redeemer [the “Seed of the Woman” (Genesis 3:15) who is our “Last Adam” (1 Corinthians 15:45)] to reverse the effects of the Fall—to make us, in time, eternally one again with our Creator.
First, man experienced a state of oneness with God, others, nature—Then they fell into a state of separation from God, others, nature—And, finally, redeemed man will be raised to a state of at-one-ment with God, others, and nature.
Life—Death—Life
At-one-ment—Separation—At-one-ment
Paradise given—Paradise lost—Paradise regained
Creation—Fall—Redemption
Where do we see the tree of life? First in the Garden of God at the beginning of human history (Genesis 2:9), then we see it in the new Jerusalem at the beginning of “a new heaven and new earth” (Revelation 22:2). Man once had access to the tree of life; Now he doesn’t; Someday he will again.
John from Patmos wrote, “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God’” (Revelation 21:2-3).
Here is imaged for us the uniting of heaven and earth. The new earth will be the dwelling place of God and man—it will be ours and Immanuel’s eternal heaven. As God and man will be at one—so will heaven and earth.
Presently, there is a division between heaven and earth. We know our Adversary once had access to heaven. Jesus said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Luke 10:18; see Isaiah 14:12). And John from Patmos recorded the war that took place in heaven between Michael (and his angels) and the dragon (and his angels.) “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).
Notice how our account of the Fall in Genesis Three begins with the temptation of the serpent. We shouldn’t loose sight of this—especially since the first gospel message (what academics call the protoeuangelion) was spoken to the serpent in Genesis 3:15.
We know Satan to be the presiding god of our present world system. And more could be said of this, but for now I bring this up to show how the idea of “the Fall” is a Biblical concept. Both Paul and James warn us against falling into sin: Let us not “fall into the condemnation of the devil” (1 Timothy 3:6; see James 5:12). And in connection with temptation we’re admonished—“Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12). Also, rebellion is Biblically worded as an “apostasy”—a literal “falling away.”
. .
I want to expand on this (hopefully tomorrow) toward the direction of Gethsemane and the cross, toward an understanding of the timing of the separation that occurred in the Godhead between the Father and the Son.
I do hope what I’ve shared concerning the Fall is enough for us to feel confident in using this term to refer to the crisis events of Genesis Three.
I like Gary’s metaphor of a multimedia Jigsaw Puzzle. For our purposes here we don’t as yet have a clear image of what we’re putting together—like we would if we had a box top with a picture on it. But for now may our comments serve as singular pieces of a puzzle we might first flip upright, then examine closely to see where and how our understandings fit to clarify our bigger picture. I admit this will be quite an ambition project—for there are pictures within pictures with pictures. But I do love puzzles. . and i’m game
Monax, you articulated and eloquently put that together. I couldn’t have done it better. I might not be responding, but I’m reading as y’all go along. Keep it up. Love Bro. Lee
David, and anybody else who might care,
As we consider the Gethsemane events, perhaps it will be useful to synthesize the accounts of Matthew 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22 into a single narrative. Here is what I have put together:
Mt26:36a Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, Lk22:40 And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” Mt36b and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” Lk41a And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw. . .
Mt37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful (Mk33: greatly distressed ) and troubled. Mt38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” Mk14:35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. Mk36 And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Lk43 And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. Lk44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Lk45 And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow, Lk46 and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? (Mk37: . . .and he said to Peter, “Simon, are you asleep? Could you not watch one hour?) Mk38 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Mt42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” Mk40 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy, and they did not know what to answer him. Mt44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. Mk41 And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? (Mt45: Sleep and take your rest later on.) It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Mt46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”
Now some minutia. All Scripture is ASV. Comparison of other translations and the Greek, at least by me, will have to wait. I first prepared a 3 column harmony, which then combined into the single synthesized narrative. In case of similar verses from the three accounts, only one was used, but with difference note parenthetically in a couple of instances. Matthew and Mark track each other quite well. It is not always so clear where all of Luke’s passages should be inserted. Luke doesn’t even mention Gethsemane, only the Mount of Olives.
A quick observation: Going forward I expect it will be the middle paragraph of the synthesis that receives most attention from me, although the preceding and succeeding paragraphs are not without relevance.
Finally, the next project I propose to assign to myself is to identify verses that reveal the burdens, and especially what I will call moral burdens, imposed on Lord between the Last Supper and the Resurrection, burdens that might or might not have been imposed, and received, in Gethsemane.
Gary, thank you. enormously helpful resource. I’ll come back to it again and again.
Great work Gary, I like it, I really do. Still on the outside looking in. (smile) I’m reading and growing.
Aachh! In my previous post, at 6:16 pm, all Scripture is ESV, not ASV as stated.
Norris and monax, thanks for the positive feedback.
Norris, glad to see you’re still here.
Amos and David, interesting discussion on the use of the word Fall. On the one hand, I appreciate Amos’ point about the dangers of using words that aren’t from Scripture. On the other hand, I’m O.K. in principle using even words that are not in Scripture as a sort of shorthand to describe Scriptural concepts–so long as the shorthand words do not take on a misleading life of their own. I’m thinking maybe Amos is going to have some ideas to the effect that the concepts that get wrapped up in the word Fall are questionable? I’m curious. Maybe the thought is that Adam didn’t so much fall as that he got expelled, expelled from the garden and expelled from God’s presence? Maybe the thought is that Adam, having never eaten of the Tree of Life, had no place from which to fall? Maybe I’m just making this all up?
David, and all,
Sometime between the Last Supper and the Resurrection the following happened:
. . . [T]he Lord has LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL. Isaiah 53:6b. [H]e poured out his soul to death and was NUMBERED WITH THE TRANSGRESSORS; yet he BORE THE SIN OF MANY, and makes intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12b. . . . Jesus our Lord . . . was DELIVERED UP FOR OUR TRESPASSES . . . . Romans 4:24b-25a. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by BECOMING A CURSE for us. . . Galatians 3:13a. [S]o Christ, [was] (text = having been) offered once to BEAR THE SINS of many. . . Hebrews 9:28a. He himself BORE OUR SINS in his body on the tree. . . 1 Peter 2:24.
And, most astonishingly: For our sake he MADE HIM TO BE SIN who knew no sin. . . 2 Corinthians 5:21a. Compared to this, what is described in the preceding paragraph seems to me almost euphemistic. Let me repeat: For our sake he MADE HIM TO BE SIN who knew no sin.
Then this from the Eternal Son of God: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” Matthew 27:47.
All Scripture is ESV, emphasis is added. When I return I maybe will be able to begin to tie all this back to Gethsemane.
monax – Gary W – ALL
Wow – A place to love and be loved – to understand and be understood – to throw out thoughts and ideas – a place to explore – and NOT be condemned – or even feel condemned – A place to dis-agree and still maintain communication.
Me-thinks this is a “notable miracle.” Acts 4:16 KJV.
I’m enjoying these edjumacated convesations. Gives me lots to think about and ponder. Lots of stuff I never thought about, or questioned before. Could this be what Paul talked about in – 1 Cor 14:26 – ALL can participate – ALL are important – ALL can teach – ALL can get revelation from Jesus – ALL are important – Let ALL things be done unto “edifying.”
And “Edify” here also mens to “build up” – And is very similar, the femine form of, Where Jesus says – I will “build” my church. Mt 16:18. That could be translated – I will “edify” my church.
And you guys “Edify” me – Well, The Christ in you “Edifies” me. – Thanks
Just want y’all to know I really appreciate the effort that goes into your writings.
And who knows – we might even bumble across some “Truth.”
monax – Gary W – Anyone interested
I’ve read Davids response to the questions about “The Fall” quite a few times. David, you certainly did an excellent, and detailed, presentation for why the use of “The Fall” in your opinion is – “akin to another term we find in our Christian lexicon. As the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible—it nevertheless signifies a Biblical reality. “
Well, now we have a difference of opinion – Because – Today – From my research…
I NO longer think the terms – The Fall, – Or, The Trinity – “signifies a Biblical reality.”
And, I’ve learned the hard way…
NOT to except – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” if they are NOT in the Bible.
And it looks like Gary is on a similar track with my thinking when is says…
“about the dangers of using words that aren’t from Scripture.“
“the concepts that get wrapped up in the word Fall are questionable?”
And, IMO – The concepts that get wrapped up in the word “Trinity” are questionable?
IMO – When you try to take shortcuts – monax says – “The Fall” is shorthand” – The Fall”…“an economic way” – “Trinity is shorthand.” You often create many more questions, and a longer path, to try and understand – “The Shorthand.”
Now “Shorthand” is an interesting word – Years ago – before our digital age – before tape recorders – secretarys would take dictation – and to speed up their writing – they used a special technique called – “Shorthand.” Is was a type of code, lots of squiggly lines, that to them meant something – BUT – The common folks – The ones who were “NOT Trained” in the code – They could NOT understand the writings – The common folks “Did NOT” have a clue to what it meant. If the common folks wanted to understand – And each secretarys squiglles were a little different – So – If the common folks wanted to understand – They had to get the Secretary who wrote the squiggly lines to interpret their particular code. Word for Word – Squiggly line after Squiggly line – And, Who knew if what they were saying was correct? If you do NOT know the code? Their private code?
So, If you want to know what the “Shorthand” for “The Fall” and “Trinity” means.
You have to ask the one who invented the “Shorthand.”
You have to go to Man – NOT the Bible.
Seems our “shorthand” is NOT so short after all.
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “Short Hand” – I’m a fan of “The Bible.”
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon”
That are NOT in the Bible.
monax – Gary W
Lets take a quick look at “The Trinity.” And some problems with using “Short Hand.”
“The Trinity.” – A -“term we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible.
Danger Alert – Danger Alert…
Here is where the danger lies in using – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” if they are NOT in the Bible.” – If – Some think it’s okay to use “Trinity” as shorthand. – And, since “Trinity” is NOT in the Bible – I can NOT go to the Bible to see what it means – If I want to understand “The Trinity” I have to go to the ones who use this “Shorthand.” “Mere Fallible Humans” – To get their code for “Trinity” and what it means. And, I have to believe them – Because “They” say “Trinity” “Signifies a Biblical reality.”
So, because I NO longer trust in the “Mere Fallible Humans” who I know personally – Those who have taken a “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend – A “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend that is a – “Term in our Christian Lexicon” – But – NOT found in the Bible – Those who have taught me about “The Trinity” – BUT I NO longer trust for many reasons – One reason being God says, many different ways – “Cursed is the man who trusts in man” – I begin my own research…
And, to my surprise, I find there are different types of “The Trinity” – Yup – NOT ALL who use this “Shorthand” agree when they interpret their “Shorthand” – Their understanding of “The Trinity.”
WOW – Different – Trinitarians – Believing – different things – about “The Trinity.”
Now when some one says – “I believe in “The Trinity” – I ask – “Which One?”
Often I get a quizzical look – Most believe their “Trinity” – That they learned about in their “Denomination” is the correct one. I ask – “If you do NOT know there is more then ONE explanation for “Trinity?” Given by different “Edjumacated Cemetarians Theologins?” – How do you know your “Trinity” the correct one?
1 – I’ve noticed – “Some Trinitarians” – Believe there is a “Hierarchy” in the God Head.
Number one is #1 – The Father – #2 – Is the Son. #3 – Is the Holy Spirit.
“Some Trinitarians”- NOT ALL – Call it ESS, Eternal Subordination of the Son.
1 – “Some Trinitarians” – Believe there is “NO Heirarchy” in the God Head.
These “Edjumacated Cemetarians Theologins” say, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “Equal” and use another whole bunch of “terms in our Christian Lexicon” – But – NOT found in the Bible. – Omniscience – Omnipresent – Omnipotent – To describe God. To other “Edjumacated Cemetarians Theologins.” But – Because “US” common folks do NOT understand these big words – We just go along with these guys with the Big words.
2 – I’ve noticed – “Some Trinitarians” Believe – With out a Bible verse to back it up…
The Father is NOT the Son.
2 – I’ve also noticed – “Some Trinitarians” – Believe – Isa. 9:6, Where it says…
Unto us a Son is Given – Is refering to Jesus. And this son is called…
“The mighty God – “The Everlasting Father” – The Prince of Peace.
And Jesus did say – I and the Father are “ONE.” – You see Me you see the Father.
So, now we have more division in the Body of Christ over a word – Trinity –
A “terms in our Christian Lexicon” – But – NOT found in the Bible.
And there are many more differences about “the Trinity” – But you get the Drift.
Now when some one says – “I believe in “The Trinity” – I ask – “Which One?”
The Trinity with “Heirarchy?” – Or The Trinty with “NO Heirarchy?”
The Trinity with “The Father is NOT the Son?” – Or, The Son is The Evelasting Father?
The Trinity with 3 distinct persons – Or, The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit – ONE.
So the “Shorthand” winds up being – NOT so short…
And leads to a lot of confusion…
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “Short Hand” – I’m a fan of “The Bible.”
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon”
That are NOT in the Bible.
monax – Gary W
Now about this term “The Fall” – “Short Hand” – I see ”concepts that are questionable.
“The Fall” – A -“term we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible.
monax – You answer the question – “How do “WE” know there was a “Fall?” With…
“so the Church at some point adopted “the Fall” as signifier of these realities.”
Question – What is “The Church? I mean – In the Bible – What is “The Church?”
Is it a building with a steeple? – A Pastor – in a Pulpit – Preaching to – People – in Pews?
That’s what the world thinks – Unbelievers – What most believers think – Because – We’ve been taught – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible. Terms like – “Go To Church”- “Join a Church” – “Tithe to a Church” – “Bring your friends to Church” – “Apply for Church membership – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible.
I think you’ll agree – In the Bible – “The Church of God” refers to believers – “US” – “WE” – The Body of Christ – Called out ones – Assembled – NOT assembled – People – God’s People.
In the Bible – “The Church” never refers to – a Building – An Organization – An Institution – A Denomination – A 501 (c) 3, Religious Corporation – The IRS calls church. And “WE” have deceived the very folks we’re supposed to be reaching out to by using – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible.
So, I would offer another option – I do NOT think we learned “The Fall’ from “The Church of God” “US,” God’s people, The Ekklsia. – “WE” learned about “The Fall” from “Mere Fallible Humans” – NOT from the Bible – From – “Church Leaders” who took a “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend NOT found in the Bible. “Church Leaders” -A “term we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT is NOT in the Bible.
So, now, Am I supposed to listen for “Biblical Truth?” From “Church Leaders” who do NOT know that – In the Bible – Jesus told His Disciples NOT to be called “Leader?” And NOT one Disciple called themself “Leader.” And, most likely, if someone calls themself a “Church Leader” – they are NOT one of His Disciples.
monax – you write…
“Notice how our account of the Fall in Genesis Three
begins with the temptation of the serpent.”
And where did you hear this? – Because it is NOT in the Bible? Oy Vey!!! Danger…
What about Eve? – Before the temptation? – Misquotes God’s Words?
And Adds to Gods Words?
Eve speaks to the serpent and says in Gen 3:3 …
“God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, “neither shall ye touch it,” lest ye die.”
So, before Adam and Eve eat from the Tree – Before the serpent – Tempts”
Eve is already adding to God’s Words. (This is added – “neither shall ye touch it,”)
Gen 3:4, the serpent speaks a lie against God – “Ye shall not surely die:”
IMO – the Temptation comes when the sepent says in Gen 3:5…
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
Isnt adding to God’s Word – kinda like we do when we use?
“terms we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible?
Could this account in the garden be for “US” – “The Church of God” – *to learn* from…
NOT to add to God’s Words?
Rom 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for *our learning,*
1Co 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them *for ensamples:*
and they are written for *our admonition,* (Warning.)
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “Short Hand” – I’m a fan of “The Bible.”
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon”
That are NOT in the Bible.
Can’t God have written? – What He wants written? – Where and When He wants it?
Do we really help Him? When we ADD to God’s Words?
Don’t you ever wonder “Why God” did NOT use the terms we use?
If God thought there was “The Fall” in Genisis 3 – A going down…
That would have been a good place for Him to say it. Yes?
But He did NOT.
monax – Gary W
One danger I’ve noticed with using “terms we find in our Christian lexicon” BUT – NOT in the Bible – Is – Once we start to do that – The skys the limit – and we have to use other terms NOT in the Bible to descibe or make understood – our secret code – for the terms we use – that are NOT in the Bible? Huh???
monax writes – @APRIL 18, 2013 @ 11:11 AM…
1 – The effects of Adam and Eve’s rebellion
2 – involved a fall from a state of innocence
3 – to that of the knowledge of good and evil.
4 – Again, although the word “fall” is not found in the Bible
to refer to Genesis Three—it, nevertheless, is essentially a Biblical expression.
5 – It indicates Adam and Eve’s downward direction
6 – from abiding in the Presence of God
7 – to being driven out of His Garden.
And, at first glance, it sounds like it’s coming from the Bible. And “is essentially a Biblical expression.” Because we’ve heard it so often from “Church Leaders.” But – Looks to me like – They are “Doctrins of men” “Commandments of men” “Traditions” that nullify God’s Words – that Jesus warned “US” about.
1 – Gen 3 – Does NOT mention “Rebellion” – “Rebellion” is added to God’s Words.
2 – Gen 3 – Does NOT mention “State of innocence” – Term is added to God’s Words.
3 – Yes – BUT – NOT a Fall to
4 – Yes – Fall – NOT found in the Bible – NO – Fall – NOT a Biblical Exprssion.
5 – Gen 3 – Does NOT mention a downward direction.
6 – Yes
7 – Yes
So Now – we add to “The Fall” other terms NOT in the Bible to describe “The Fall.
Rebellion – State of innocence – Downward direction.
Was Eve in a “state of innocence?” When she added to God’s Words?
Before the serpent tempted her?
Seems our “shorthand” is NOT so short after all.
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “Short Hand” – I’m a fan of “The Bible.”
NO – I am NOT a fan of – “terms we find in our Christian lexicon”
That are NOT in the Bible.
And if anyone is still reading –
And wondering what “shorthand” looks like go to…
Shorthand
I confess to you, Gary and friends, that as my understanding of this deepens—so does the mystery.
I commented above how I believe Jesus experienced two deaths that day on the cross. And Gary responded with his belief that Jesus’ Separation from His Father (and ours) actually took place in Gethsemane. . . that it was in Gethsemane that He took our sins upon Himself, that this is when He became separated from the Father, and that this, therefore, is when he effectively died for our sins.
Building on the comments and especially the verses Gary provided above—let me drop another crucial piece of the puzzle into the comments.
The Christian doctrine of Imputation
“Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity” (Psalm 32:1-2).
The Hebrew word for atonement is kaphar which means to cover, to cover over. The sacrificial blood of Christ has covered the penalty of our sins.
The Hebrew word for impute is chashav which means to think, to regard, to reckon oneself, to be accounted, to credit, to consider. When God is the Subject of chashav the word is weighted with the highest of legal considerations.
The first time we encounter chashav in the Torah is in Genesis 15:6—“And Abram believed in the LORD, and He counted it to him as righteousness.”
Three biblical instances—from God’s perspective—of imputation:
1—the sin of Adam is imputed to his children
2—the sin of Christ’s people are imputed to Him
3—the righteousness of Christ is imputed to His people
From Isaiah 53 (vss 6, 10b, 11):
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him [the Suffering Servant].
When You make his soul an offering for sin…
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
By his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
Make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
I’m certain the Apostle Paul had Isaiah 53 in mind when he wrote: For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21).
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
Amen
. .
According to the righteous law of God—the penalty of sin is death. Someone had to pay the price for man’s transgression against Him. The perfect Substitute would be none other than God Himself. God’s Amazing Love worked out a way to satisfy his Holy Justice so that Jesus would be the sacrificial “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).
We read in the Suffering Servant passage of Isaiah 53 how the Messiah “was lead as a lamb to the slaughter.” And “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Hebrews 9:22). “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11).
The words of Jesus on the night before Gethsemane: “For this is my blood… which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28). While in Gethsemane Jesus prayed, “My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39).
The cup Christ was to drink was the measure of judgment due His people. The physical and spiritual sufferings of this judgement would culminate in his spiritual and physical deaths on the cross.
Gary, I’m not sure Jesus experienced a spiritual separation from the Father in Gethsemane. Reason being: We see him praying to the Father all the way up until he pronounces that “the hour has come—the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners” (Matthew 26:45).
As those who have been tortured know: the anticipation of the pain and suffering is often more torturous than the actual torture. Jesus was agonizing in a prayer to the Father so fervently “his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (Luke 22:43-44; note: some manuscripts omit these two verses).
Again, Gary, as I’m reading it, He had not yet been separated from the Father in the garden of Gethsemane. And this experience of a Separation from the Father who had from all eternity been one with the Son—I believe was experienced by Jesus as a spiritual death of a magnitude not a one of us will possibly even begin to properly appreciate until deep deep deep into our time with the Father in Eternity.
So the question for me, then, is When were the sins of His people placed on His person?
I see the timing of this transference of sins upon Jesus as possibly the moment when He began experiencing a true spiritual and physical dying. For the Prophet tells us “Your sins have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you” (Isaiah 59:2).
. .
On the symbolic transference of sins found in Leviticus One
Much of the book of Leviticus gives instructions on how Israel is to approach the LORD and find acceptable atonement for their sins.
In Leviticus One we see a symbolic transference of sins from the sinner seeking atonement to his sacrificial substitute—such as a bull or ram without blemish.
“He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD.”
The man seeking atonement would lay his hand on the head of the sacrificial animal to identify himself with it in such a way as to understand that although he absolutely deserves to die for his sins, the animal, instead, is dying in his place.
The man would cut the throat of the bull or ram and the priests would collect the blood in a bowl and then sprinkle it upon the alter.
We see images of Christ’s atonement everywhere in Scriptures—in the clothing God provided Adam and Eve; in the story of Cain and Abel (( man’s first physical death being a murder-of-an-innocent-and-righteous-shepherd )); in the provision of a ram in Genesis 22; in the blood of the Passover lambs of Exodus 12; in the Feasts of the LORD of Leviticus 23; and in the OT sacrificial system.
“For the penalty of sin is death, However, the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
Amos, my contrary friend, you’re killing me— i’m only able to answer one question at a time. Also, there is only so much time afforded me to interact here. And it takes a good concentration of it to economize my writing to a shape and size that is both relatively readable and understandable.
In my efforts, here, I employ terms that carry volumes of meaning. I do the best I can to define them in the context of our discussion. I went to great lengths to relate to you how I was employing the term “the Fall.”
Simply this and nothing more: The Fall = Genesis Three
Consider how the Apostle Paul employs the salvific word grace as shorthand for “God’s redemptive act of love and mercy whereby he grants eternal life to those who put their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.” The idea of Grace embodies enormous territory, but used and read in context we find its meaning.
The context of Genesis Three is the rest of the Bible that provides commentary on the mystery and meaning of what transpired in the garden of Eden at the beginning of human time.
For instance we read at the very end of the Bible in the book of Revelation that the ancient Edenic serpent is identified as the dragon, who is the devil, or Satan.
So we can ascribe things to Genesis Three that later Scripture enlightens us to—as a rebellion that involved man in a fall from a state of innocence to that of the knowledge of good and evil.
Disobeying the word of the LORD is characterized as rebellion. “Rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry—for you have rejected the word of the LORD” (1 Samuel 15:23).
David,
You’ve obviously put way more thought into the atonement, how it works, and so on than I have! Still, I’m hoping to be able to share some more thoughts as to when Jusus’ separation from the Father might, or might not, have occurred. In the meantime, you go and start using the word “impute” and its cognates! Now, I’m not quite ready to get distracted from the question of Gethsemane, but let me see if I can get you thinking some more (or else maybe convince you I’m a total, raving heretic). While I haven’t reached total conviction on the matter, I am having real difficulty with the whole concept of imputation. Contrary to what I recall Wayne Grudem as having written, I question whether Adam’s sin was merely imputed to us. I begin to rather strongly hold that Adam’s sin was actually imparted to us. Further, I begin to doubt whether our sin was merely imputed to the Son of God, as I’m sure Grudem writes. Rather, I begin to find it more credible to suppose that His having been “made sin” was no mere abstraction or legal fiction, but that he actually somehow identified with us to the point of truly and really and tangibly taking on our sin, and becoming sin, so that he actually, really and tangibly reaped the full consequences of all the sin sowed by Adam and his descendants. If these suppositions are true, it brings into question the whole notion of “penal” substitutionary atonement. There was simply a substitutionary atonement–no need to pay a penalty to satisfy the supposed wrath of God (who, by the way, is Love), only a need to satisfy the law of sowing and reaping. Well, there, I’ve done it. I’ve just walked away from 40 some years of life in the Evangelical tradition. But I just have trouble with the notion that God acts on the basis of any kind of fiction, legal or otherwise.
O.K. I let myself get distracted. I hope to return to Gethsemane in my next post.
And I haven’t even had time to read everything Amos recently posted. Back later.
Gary, I see the sin of Adam being both imputed and imparted to man. And I’m open to seeing how our sin was both imputed and imparted to Christ. So I’m listening (i.e., waiting to read what you have for me).
Regarding “the supposed wrath of God”
God is not only a God of love, He is also a God of wrath. We His redeemed children are not appointed to wrath—we won’t know it. But the wicked will—on the Day of the LORD—which is also prophetically known as the Day of Wrath.
Well I have, and it is deep. I would love to respond to the trinity part when I get back. Amos you’re a sharp individual and strong in your statements. You present some strong arguments. However the bible does have the answer to your arguments. I would love to share ( the bible’s version of the trinity) with you, so please be patience, Always Bro. Lee in=Christ.
David, and anybody else who is interested our discussion of Gethsemane,
Again, this Scripture: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46, ESV. From this we know that the Father forsook or had forsaken His Son no later than about the ninth hour, which I take to be 3 o’clock in the afternoon, next following the night time events in the Garden of Gethsemane. But was Jesus crying out immediately upon His being forsaken?
Jesus’ words were the opening words of David’s cry as recorded at Psalm 22:1-2: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest.
Jesus’ predecessor, at least, appears to have been in distress for some period of time prior to actually crying out. If Jesus’ use of the Psalmist’s words-become-Scripture were meant to communicate the fullness of the Psalmist’s sentiment, Jesus’ cry is indicating the culmination of His distress following some period of having been forsaken by the Father.
Similarly, might not any one of us cry out to God only after some extended experience of God’s seeming abandonment? Might it not be that we would be most likely to cry out only after his seeming absence had become unbearable. (Except that for Jesus, of course, the Father’s forsaking was not a mere seeming.)
It turns out that I am not alone in reading the matter this way. At page 576 of my copy of Grudem’s Systematic Theology, Grudem writes that we may understand Jesus’ cry “as meaning ‘Why have you left me for so long?’ ” I am not saying anybody should accept my argument because Grudem is some sort of final authority on the matter. I only wish to point out that my views are not unique to myself.
Is all of this proof that Jesus was forsaken by His Father while Jesus was in Gethsemane? No, but the possibility remains open. Further, there is evidence that the forsaking had taken place some significant period of time before Jesus cried out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?”
More to follow. Probably not this evening, at least on this topic.
David, I may find myself backpedaling on the matter of the wrath of God. My hope is that God’s wrath should turn out to be directed more at sin than at the sinner, else how could it be said the Jesus is the perfect representation of the Father? But for now the limited nature of the availability of time will require that I focus on Gethsemane. Alas.
Gary, fwiw, as I was looking at the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1-2 yesterday, this is how I translated the verses into English—My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me [according to] the words of my roaring cry? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest.
His cry ((as read in the Hebrew)) is like that of a lion.
. .
Gary, I think proof of Jesus NOT experiencing a spiritual Separation from the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane was that he was praying to God—spiritually connecting to the Father—all the way up until he pronounced that His Hour Had Come when he was then seized and taken to Caiaphas the high priest, the Sanhedrin, Scribes, Elders, and other religious rulers who were seeking false testimony against him that they might put him to death.
I don’t see a Separation of the Father occurring here in the Garden of Gethsemane for that reason.
Hello Amos, well i would like to respond to your thought on the trinity. Yes the word trinity is not found in the bible, however the definition is. The bible teaches 3in1 or 3 distinct person who share the same attributes and/or character. When I say three in one I mean I must find each scripture that bears this out. Now I will choose a scripture, however this will not be an exhausted work. There are many other scripture that bear this out.
Lets start with the attributes of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
The word Title: each must share in scripture that they are spoken of as God
scripture references: Ex 20:2, John 20:27, Acts 5:3-4
Sovereign: Is 40:13-14, Jo 3:31, 1cor 12:11
Eternal: Rev 22:13, Rev 1:8, Heb 9:14
Love: 1Jo 4:8&16, Eph 5:2, Rom 5:5
Righteous Ps 145:17, 1Jo 2:1, Heb 10:16-15
Holy: Ex 15:11, Acts 4:27, Rom:1:4
Just: Is 45:21, Acts 22:14 1Cor 6:11
Omniscience: Is 46:10, Jo 2:24-25, 1Cor 2:10
Omnipotent: Rev 19:6, Jo 10:17-18, Rom 15:13&19
Omnipresent: Jer:23:23-24, Eph 1:23, Ps 139:7-10
Veracity: Deu 32:4, Jo 1:14, Jo 14:17
Immutable: Mal: 3:6, Heb 1:12, Ps 102:24-27
These attribute all share. The bible plainly teaches that there are one in Character and Attributes. Though the word is not found in scriptures we can plainly see their definition are. These attribute covers all the small ones like forgiveness, wisdom, mercy etc……
I know you have a response, so I’ll be waiting. Love your bro. in Christ.
My bad all scripture reference are king James version, also the first scripture references the Father, the second the Son and the third the Holy Ghost.
David,
Please allow me to submit for your consideration alternative inferences to be drawn from the record of Jesus’ praying in Gethsemane. Yes, Jesus prayed, first that “the hour might pass from him,” and second that the Father would “remove this cup from me.” Both petitions were denied, or at least neither was granted. This in and of itself is a forsaking, or so I submit. Is it even reasonable to suppose that there had been any other occasion, throughout all eternity past, that the Father had denied the Son’s request?
I submit that Jesus would not have made petitions that He knew were contrary to the Father’s will. Therefore, the very making of such petition is further evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father. I submit that the making of requests that were contrary to the Father’s will are evidence that, though Jesus prayed, there was no spiritual connection.
After Jesus’ petitions were denied, or left unanswered, He did not repeat the petitions. Rather He prayed “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” As I understand the record, he prayed this same thing a second time. That he prayed the same thing twice may indicate a disconnect between Jesus and the Father. Why say the same thing twice if you know you were heard the first time?
We have left the arena of revelation and are engaged in the application of reason, in the drawing of inferences from the Texts. Let us proceed with caution. As difficult as I find it to type, I make no claim to infallibility. I dare do nothing more than submit my views for your consideration. Fortunately, we have the same Spirit who Jesus promised would guide the apostles into all truth. John 16:13.
More to follow, I hope tomorrow.
Also David, thank you for your translation of Psalms 22:1-2. Your ability to work with the Hebrew requires me to labor at resisting the sin of envy.
Amos,
Do you recognize how much it will be necessary for me to unlearn, how difficult it will be to break habitual ways of seeing and thinking and understanding, if I begin to toss out every concept and word that is not actually printed in the Bible? Actually, if I visit my old Sunday school class tomorrow, it will be for the (admittedly mischievous) purpose of trying to hold them to what the Bible actually says. Seriously, though, about 12 years ago I embraced a prayer somebody said over me to the effect that I would be able to begin to take the Bible at face value, setting aside all doctrinal filters. I have been getting in trouble with “the corrupt religious system” ever since.
Gary W
Enjoying your explanations – and David’s also – You bring out some excellent points – I never really thought about where the seperation occurred – Jesus being forsaken – Just assumed it was on the Cross – That’s what I was taught – Ouch!!! – **Danger Alert** – Do NOT trust “Church Leaders.” Trust NO man – Jesus wants to teach us – Jesus is the best teacher – Yes???
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Isa 54:13
And ALL thy children shall be taught of the LORD…
Deut 4:36
Out of heaven HE made you to “Hear His Voice,” that HE might “instruct thee:”
Gary – You write…
“Both petitions were denied, or at least neither was granted.
This in and of itself is a forsaking, “
… Hmmm? Yes – Makes sense —– And, in the past, Jesus, when NOT forsaken, said…
John 5:19
…The Son can do nothing of himself, but what *he seeth the Father do:*
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8:28
…I do nothing of myself; but *as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.*
Hmmm? Jesus, NOT forsaken says – The Son only does what He sees the Father doing.
BUT – that does NOT seem to be happening in Gethsemane. Forsaken??? – Probably.
“I submit that Jesus would not have made petitions that He knew were contrary to the Father’s will. Therefore, the very making of such petition is further evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father.”
… Hmmm? Yes – Makes sense – I appreciate your thoughts and reasoning.
“That he prayed the same thing twice may indicate a disconnect between Jesus and the Father. Why say the same thing twice if you know you were heard the first time?”
.. Hmmm? Yes – Makes sense…
And – You are studying – when Jesus was forsaken – because – Why?
I mean – Is there another reason – outside of seeking the “Truth.” – Jesus.
Gary W
You write…
“Do you recognize how much it will be necessary for me to unlearn, how difficult it will be to break habitual ways of seeing and thinking and understanding, if I begin to toss out every concept and word that is not actually printed in the Bible?”
Yes – I do.
I’ve been at it since 1988 – over 20 years now – And Jesus is still showing me where “My Religious Traditions” Make Void – And Cancel – the Word of God.
Yes – Much to un-learn – Very difficult to – Break from “Commandments of Men” – “Doctrines of Men“ – “Tradition of Men” – That I believed to be “Truth.” But – only “Cancelled the Word of God – Only nullified The Word of God.
Wow – Something so powerful it can Make Void, Cancel – “The Word of God.”
And – I figure “the Bible” is The Word of God – And Jesus, is The Word of God.
Seems man made traditions “Shorthand” make “the Bible” of “none effect.””
Seems man made traditions “Shorthand” make “Jesus” of “none effect.”
Mark 7:13
NLT – So “you cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
………. And this is only one example among many others.”
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Yes – It became mandatory, a quest, for me to seek out ALL these man made “Traditions.”
With what the Bible actually says. 
And “Cancel” these “Traditions.”.
And – NOT many appreciate their “Traditions” being challenged. What they have believed for 10 – 20 – 30 – years – as “Truth.” They defend at all costs – Jesus was a “Tradition” breaker – Telling the “Truth.” And look where He wound up – BUT – when your eyes are opened you want others to enjoy the freedom – the liberty in Christ. And NO longer be in bondage to “the Commandments of Men” – These “Traditions.”
And – Like you write…
“I have been getting in trouble with “the corrupt religious system” ever since.
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
Amos, thank you for sharing what you have learned along your journey! I’ve learned a lot from you.
And as I was just reading this I remembered I owe you an e-mail. I haven’t forgotten. I’m away at volleyball tournament all day today. Soon!
Gary, when I grow up, I want to be able to talk/write like you.
This sentence: Your ability to work with the Hebrew requires me to labor at resisting the sin of envy. cracked me up!!
Julie Ann, I suggest that you never grow up. I’m over here in a corner engaged in conversation with a small handful of people. You write in a style that enables you to communicate with and positively impact tens and hundreds and maybe thousands of people–people who would otherwise be in a very real place of spiritual abandonment.
Julie Anne
Yeah – What Gary said.
You are precious – Just the way you are.
Reflections on Gethsemane, the Next Installment:
And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful (Mk 14:33: greatly distressed ) and troubled. Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” Matthew 26:37-38 ESV.
Here we have the beginning of the description of whatever it was that Jesus experienced in Gethsemane. I suggest that Isaiah 53 may be viewed as commentary or elaboration on these and the following verses (although this is not to exclude other applications of Isaiah 53). Beyond this, whatever exegetical skill I may have fails me. Other than in the parallel passages in Mark and Luke I, at least, find no other Scriptural illumination of these particular events.
Perhaps we can draw useful inferences from that fact that Jesus says “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death.” By “soul” I take it that Jesus is speaking of his bodily life. When Jesus says He is sorrowful “to death” (Gk., ἕως θανάτου, heos thanatou), I conclude from lexical authorities, as confirmed by other English translations, that Jesus is saying that He is sorrowful to the very point of death. Whatever the cause, Jesus has begun to suffer in His body. However, neither from the Gethsemane passages themselves, nor from the application of reason to these verses, can it be determined one way or the other whether Jesus had already suffered or was beginning to experience separation from the Father. Personally, I can go no further by the application of reason to revelation.
Yet, if knowledge in the Biblical sense is a knowing that goes beyond the mere acquisition of facts, if knowledge in the Biblical sense is gained experientially and relationally, we may in prayer legitimately seek understanding by way of entering into Jesus’ experience, that is: by empathetically identifying with him in His distress, by feeling what he felt and, at a distance at least, suffering what He suffered. We must be careful. This approach simply will not allow us to satisfy the demands of the Enlightenment goddess whose name is Reason. Each of us will tend to project their own experiences, prejudices and perceptions onto the experience of our Savior. Yet in community, with each person sharing what they see and have received, I have hope that we may more nearly approach the truth (or should I say Truth?) than if the attempt were not made. My personal take follows.
It is possible that Jesus was sorrowful, distressed and troubled out of fear, anxiety, dread, or some such, triggered by the anticipation of being made sin, of bearing the consequences of sin, of being separated from the Father, or all these things. In the alternative, He may have been sorrowful, distressed and troubled because the things he had to suffer had already come or begun to come upon Him. Regarding these contrasting possibilities, I would note Jesus’ statement recorded at Luke 22:15: “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.” At least at this point Jesus had not yielded to fear, anxiety, dread or the like.
Yet the question remains whether Jesus could have yielded to fear, anxiety, dread, etc. by the time the Gethsemane events were in progress. It may well be that the dread of pain and suffering can be worse than the event itself. If this is being read by anybody who has given birth, perhaps they could tell us whether the dread of labor tends to be worse than the pain of labor itself; although each mother’s experience may be different. For my own part I can say this: The removal of an ingrown toenail from one of the large toes, without the benefit of local anesthesia, is torture, literally, if only for the briefest of moments. My first experience of the procedure was not preceded by fear, anxiety, dread, etc. I simply did not know what to expect. The second time around, some time later, the procedure most defiantly was preceded by anxiety and dread (though pride forbids I admit to fear). Still, the sweating of bullets, as it were, did not come until the procedure itself was underway.
I once again submit that Jesus was no Coward. If He was experiencing sorrow “even to death,” it was not from the mere anticipation of what he was to experience; it was not because of fear, anxiety or dread from the mere anticipation of what He was about to suffer. Either He had already been made sin, or else He was being made sin. I submit that if He had already been made sin, or if He was already being made sin, He also had been forsaken, or was being forsaken, by the Father.
All of these considerations would also apply, at least generally, to Jesus’ sweating of blood.
And there you have it: puzzle pieces in three dimensions–the dimensions of revelation, objective reason, and subjective experience-based intuition. No room here to add anything from the dimension of the theological traditions of men.
Norris, I have printed and intend to go through each of the verses you posted last night. I don’t know if I will have anything to add to your discussion with Amos. He doesn’t need my help. However, I do wish to thank you for your contribution.
Thanks, Gary and Amos. You two are so kind. I have to think of how words affect me when reading.
I remember reading Brad’s very logical comments and I confess at times I would skim. What a shame, because now I know better. I have to really slow down and ponder each word. And since doing that, I have learned so much from him. He has great wisdom. And of course tucked in that wisdom sometimes he sneaks in some Bradisms that can make you split a gut laughing.
Let’s face it. We were all created in His image and have something beautiful to offer to others. I’ve learned so much from so many of you.
Gary W
All help is gladly excepted.
There are many who say I need professional help.
monax
You write…
“Amos, my contrary friend, you’re killing me.”
Yup – That’s the idea. –
At least *killing* “Traditions of Men” in you – And – I found out – We ALL got em.
And *killing* “Traditions of Men” that had me in Bondage is now a favorite sport. – In me and others. – More fun then playing basketball. For “WE” wrestle NOT against Flesh and Blood. The adversary is accomplished at what he does. It ALL looks so good at first, so correct. And when someone “Gets It” it’s Priceless. NO longer being in Bondage to man made rules and “Traditions.” AAAHHH Liberty.
When Jesus opened my eyes – To His Word – NOT what I was taught by Man. I Kinda felt like Paul – Who was Saul – Until Jesus removed the scales – and said, “I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.” Acts 9:16. Yes – there will be a price to pay.
But – Paul/Saul/Amos – A “Religious Leader” – with Power – Profit – Prestige – Finally – Eventually – Denied Self – Left ALL – Forsook ALL – Power – Profit – Prestige – To be one of His Disciples.
Paul went off for around three years – Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man. When Jesus showed Himself to Paul – Immediately Paul conferred NOT with Flesh and Blood. Gal 1:16. That’s what I recommend today. Go to Jesus and “Get It” from Him. Throw out ALL you think you know and start from scratch. Read the Gospels over and over again – Read the Red – again and again – Get to know Jesus – He’s the Best.
Found out – most of the time – you have to dig your own wells – to find “living water.”
Lord – You’re killing me – And, that’s what I cried out to Jesus when He was stripping away ALL I had believed and came to “Trust” in. – I’ve believed so many lies – So many “Traditions” NOT in the Bible.
Would you like a list? My list?
Or, maybe you can ask Jesus to show you? – You’re list – of your “Traditions?”
That Cancel and Make Void – “the Word of God” – We ALL got em…
And Today – I only desire to be “contrary” to “The Doctrines of Men” – “The Commandments of Men” – “the Traditions of Men” that have so many in Bondage, and have wounded so many.
David – I like You – And to write those four comments to you about – the “Dangers of Shorthand” – “the Trinity” – “the Fall” – took many, many, hours. And I re-read your answers about “The Fall” many times.
Just want you to know – I do NOT take this conversation lightly.
And I thank you for reading – and responding…
You were very close to convincing me…
“Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.- Willing to use “shorthand.”
Mal 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Norris
Thanks for your response – And the scriptures.
Glad you are still reading along. And these are some long comments – Oy Vey!!!
I could be wrong, but, Seems I did NOT explain myself properly about “The Trinity.”
What I was questioning, and challenging, was David @ APRIL 18, 2013 @ 11:11 AM…
Where – IMO – David is trying to convince me it’s okay to use the “Shorthand” term “The Fall” – a “term we find in our Christian lexicon” – But is NOT in the Bible.
By pointing to another “Shorthand” term “The Trinity” – Another “term we find in our Christian lexicon” – But is NOT in the Bible.
I experience this often – But find it to be a “Strange B. S.” – “Strange Belief System.”
Trying to prove a “Term” is okay to use – Even though it’s NOT in the Bible.
By pointing to another “Term” – NOT in the Bible.
Why do we NOT use the Bible? To describe what is in the Bible?
And I attempted convince David why the use of “The Trinity” was NOT a worthwhile “Shorthand” to use to convince me that it was okay to use “The Fall” as “Shorthand.”
The term “The Trinity” is so well ingrained in our brains NO one questions it.
And – when someone does question it – Most will defend “Their Trinity.” To the Death.
So, I question “The Trinity” – And what it means – because I’m on a quest – to find My Traditions that Make Void the Word of God in MY life – I find “The Trinity” is very suspect for many reasons. Some of which I stated if you re-read that comment @ APRIL 20, 2013 @ 11:31 AM.
“I begin my own research…
And, to my surprise, I find there are different types of “The Trinity” – Yup – NOT ALL who use this “Shorthand” agree when they interpret their “Shorthand” – Their understanding of “The Trinity.”
WOW – Different – Trinitarians – Believing – different things – about “The Trinity.”
Now when someone says – “I believe in “The Trinity” – I ask – “Which One?”
Did you know there are different ways “Church Leaders” explain “The Trinity?
I’m questioning the use of “the Trinity” a “Shorthand” term NOT in the Bible.
To say it’s okay to use “the Fall” a “Shorthand ” term NOT in the Bible.
Because there are different ways to explain “the Trinity” it is NO longer “Shorthand.”
IMO – the term “The Trinity” and the different opinions about it – Is questionable.
And – you and many say… “The bible teaches 3in1 or 3 distinct person.”
Please – show me where in the Bible you find – 3 distinct persons?
God being a person makes it sound – so – eeerrr – how do you say it – So human.
Person – Dictionary – A human being regarded as an individual.
NO – My God is NOT a human being. NOT a person.
I find in the Bible – God is Spirit – God is Light – God is Love…
And – “God is NOT a man” – Nu 23:19.
Hello Amos, Yes i know you like to challenge the status quo. You have every right to question what you don’t/or do know about the bible. However you shouldn’t be combative or argumentative when simple truths are shown to you. Experience does not supersede the Word of God. In your quest to reach the truth, you void some simple explanations. When you speak of Pastor/elders you speak in the negative as thou all Pastor are evil and corrupt. Seeking power, prestige, profit and the likes. This is a description of a false Pastor/Elder(2Cor 11:13) there are many good men who have given there lives for the gospel. To gather them with these false Apostle/Pastor/Elder seems unfair, because you have personally been involved in such activities. To expose such men are actually a good thing, however don’t linked them with these evil and corrupt men. Jesus said He came to heal the broken hearted (Lu 4:18). You seem to have a grip on what you are learning. Why not move forward with that? Bible say in Jo 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. What are you lifting up? Christ is full of Grace and Truth and Love with the forgiveness of sin. That’s the Christ I want to exalt. That’s the Christ i want to lift up. When we lift up negativity and the likes, Christ is not being glorified in that. Every time in scripture when the men of God were done wrong THEY ask that God would not count it against there adversaries. Titus 3:2-3″ To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness to all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lust and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another”. Today it is about GRACE. What God has done for us, That should be our focus and energy. Time is to short to focus on any thing else. Christ and the Cross. Hallelujah for that. Father I pray that you soften Amos heart that he may focus on you and your Greatness and let it shine through out his life bringing much glory to your name. I know Amos I may have missed the mark on my analyzation of you, however that what I felt in my spirit. You maybe a big whig in knowledge, yet you lack the most important ingredient LOVE. Love covers a multitude of sins. (1Pet4:8) love your bro. in Christ. May He richly bless you and yours.
Norris,
Amos loves you. I say this with complete confidence. Still, I have some understanding how it is that you are not feeling the love. I myself have come from a background where I didn’t feel loved if somebody disagreed with me. I still cannot fully explain how this could be, but I think it has to do with important people in my life having beaten up on me if I didn’t think what they thought. Therefore, in my immature heart, I just automatically and habitually assumed that ANYBODY who disagreed with me thought I was a bad person, or worse. Even if somebody was trying to help, disagreement felt like hate, not love. The reality, as best as I can see, is that Amos is demonstrating his love toward you by counting you worthy of his time and effort. He is exhibiting his love toward you by counting you as one he can trust with what is near and dear to his heart. I would go so far as to suggest that he is exhibiting his love toward you by risking your rejection. He is exhibiting his love toward you by treating you as a brother. If his words seem to wound, they are not intended to do so. To the extent that his words do wound, however unintentionally, “Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy. (Proverbs 27:6, ESV)
Norris
Sorry you can not feel or understand the Love, many here have shown you here.
How you have been accepted, forgiven, and asked forgiveness of.
You might NOT have noticed, or even recognized, that the very thing you have accused “US” at SSB of doing – And me, Amos, – You are doing yourself. In your first comment @ APRIL 3, 2013 @ 12:31 PM – you say “However I will hold judgement for God to sort this out.” But – You do NOT hold Judgement on me.
You also say in that first comment…
“May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter.”
Yet – you have NO problem when you “assassinate the character” od A. Amos Love.
Yes – You are forgiven – I hold NO ill will – I am used to it – Deal with it often…
With pastor/elder/overseers who do NOT qualify. Seems these “pastor/elders who Abuse” attempt to silence folks who dis-agree with them by calling them names – To try to marginalize them and what they say.
And – maybe you forgot – But – You are the one who asked for “this as a stepping stone to teaching.” And I’ve done the best I know how to write out and share what I’m understanding now.
Even said I could be wrong. – @ APRIL 10, 2013 @ 8:14 AM –
But – In my research – and God forbid, my research can be wrong…
And again I said I could be wrong. – APRIL 12, 2013 @ 5:17 PM
But – Since leaving “The Religious System” I see it a little different.
NOT that I have “The Final Answer – I do reserve the right to be wrong.
Been wrong a few times in the past and have changed my mind.
And I constantly ask you to show from Scripture where I’m missing it.
But – You refuse to answer the simplest of questions – and we know why – Don’t we?
Just because I do NOT like the terms “The Trinity’ and “The Fall” – NOT in the Bible. You say I’m NOT showing LOVE. Just because I can NOT find, In the Bible, one of His Disciples who had the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend and choose to let others know that – You accuse me of – NOT showing LOVE.
You accuse me of saying – “all Pastor are evil and corrupt.” Nope Never said that.
Please do NOT put words in my mouth – I have enough of my own.”
And – If I did say that? – Can you please show me where I said it?
You accuse me – “yet you lack the most important ingredient LOVE.”
And say – “Love covers a multitude of sins.”
Can you show me – by your actions – If I’m in Sin by NOT showing LOVE…
How would you go about showing LOVE? – That covers my Sin.
Would you do like you did here? – Point it out to every one?
Gary W
WOW – I was writing when you posted – Just read your remarks after I posted.
WOW – From what you said – I must be a really nice guy…
And – Yes – Your explanation is out-of- sight…
“The reality, as best as I can see, is that Amos is demonstrating his love toward you by counting you worthy of his time and effort. He is exhibiting his love toward you by counting you as one he can trust with what is near and dear to his heart.”
When I first read – Norris – It was – Frustrating to say the least – Lord help – what else can you do – hours and hours of writing – Trying to stick to scripture – Trying to help Norris understand what I’m seeing – And Norris goes back to how he started here – condemning – and judging – everyone in sight.
Thanks again for having my back. Much appreciated.
Norris – monax – anyone
If you would still like to fellowship – Celebrate Communion with “US”…
Can you please answer these questions?
“And – you and many say… “The bible teaches 3in1 or 3 distinct person.”
Please – show me where, In the Bible, you find – 3 distinct persons?”
Because – I can NOT find in the Bible – God – refered to as a Person.
Now, Jesus, as Man, was a person – But – The Father and The Holy Spirit are NOT.
Personally, I can find verses, in the Bible, that say…
The Father – is God.
The Son – is God.
The Holy Spirit – is God.
Does that put me in good standing with you. You probably can agree with that – Yes?
BUT – Once we say “The Trinity” – Along comes a host of other “Questionable Stuff” NOT in the Bible – To Explain “The Trinity” – Which is NOT in the Bible.
Sounds like you think it’s okay to use “The Trinity”- It’s okay to ADD to God’s Words.
If Norris is saying – “I believe in “The Trinity.” – I ask – “Which One?” Which Trinity?
The Trinity with Heirarchy? – Or The Trinity with “NO Heirarchy” in the God head?”
The Trinity with The Father is NOT the Son? – Or, The Son is The Everlasting Father?
The Trinity with 3 distinct persons – Or, The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit – ONE?
And I think we can agree – God is “Infinite.” Yes?
Psalm 147:5 – Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is “infinite.”
Infinite – Strongs – *innumerable* – among a few definitions.
Infinite – Thayers – *innumerable* – among a few definitions.
Infinite – Dictionary – - limitless, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
Job 9:10 – Job speaks about God – His **wonders without number.** Yes?
Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and **wonders without number.**
Rom 11:33 – Paul – Speaks about God – **His ways past finding out!** Yes?
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are his judgments, and **his ways past finding out!**
Hmmm? Seems “The Bible” describes God as…
Infinite – Wonders without number – His ways past finding out – Inumerable – Linitless – Impossible to measure or calculate.
Heb 12:22, Speaks about an – “innumerable company of angels,”
So, we have an “Infinite God” – Who is – Omniscient – Omnipresent – Omnipotent.
Who creates an “innumerable company of angels,”- Heb 12:22
So Norris – here is a question for you – About the term “The Trinity.”
Does this term “The Trinity?” – Describe God as…
Infinite? – Doing, Wonders without number? – His ways past finding out? – Inumerable? – Linitless? – Impossible to measure or calculate?
“The Trinity” – A term NOT found in the Bible – An invention of Man.
Hello Amos, I knew that this would turn into something I didn’t want to happen. I have a problem expressing myself with this computer. I didn’t mean it that way. I was saying it seems to me that you were always harping about Pastor/Elder/Overseer and the things they were seeking after. However you never gave credit to men who hold those position any credit. Men who have given their lives for the gospel.It seems to me (speaking for myself) you were holding a grudge because of what may have happen in your life. The bible paints a lovely picture of men leading (not in Webster terms) the church in the different church history. The word of God is being preached and souls are being saved. I truly am sorry if I seemed to have attempted to assassinate your character. My point was, why not let God heal your broken heart in this matter. One thing I’ve learned about this Christianity is to forgive and move on. To allow God the time and space to reconcile or redeemed and restore. I know it is not all about having a knowledge about a person. It’s showing the love that He showed. When Christ walked this earth He met needs. People came because He was meeting peoples needs. No He didn’t judge he said He came to save the sinner. So when i come to this internet I’m hoping to see that type of love. I know that I have said somethings that were wrong, whether it be toward people or the bible, for instance, I never meant to assassinate anyones character, I have mis-spoken when I said three distinct person. You were right in your assessment when you said Jesus was the only one with a body. God is Spirit (Jo 4:24) What I meant when I said they were 3 distinct persons is they have the same personality in attributes and character. To answer your questions: Yes it describe God as infinite (all knowing), Yes He has shown many signs and wonders when He walked the earth(Jo2:25), His way past finding out Yes as you have described. Innumerable, limitless Yes those are all the attributes of the trinity. That the bible truly defines. I say this with all my heart for you Amos and those who reside on this blog. I truly love each and every one of you with the love of Christ. Continue to pray for me that I grow into the person He has called me to be. Love your bro. in-Christ Norris Lee
The scripture in my last post should have read Jo 21:25. God bless
Norris
You write…
“His way past finding out Yes as you have described.
Innumerable, limitless Yes those are *all the attributes of the trinity.*
NOPE…
“The Trinity” – As invented by man…
“Numbers God” – Decided by man to be – Three…
And God is NO longer – “Innumerable.”
“The Trinity” – As invented by man…
*Limits God* – to Three.
And God is NO longer – “Limitless.”
If God wanted to known as, or revealed as – “The Trinity”
He could have had it “Written” – in His Word – The Bible…
But – God did NOT have it written – “The Trinity.”
Do you know of any scriptures that say – Inventions of Man…
“Traditions of Man” that Cancel, Make Void, “The Word of God” – Are…
“profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Norris
You write…
“seems to me that you were always harping about Pastor/Elder/Overseer and the things they were seeking after. However you never gave credit to men who hold those position any credit. Men who have given their lives for the gospel.”
He who flatters his neighbor spreads a net for his feet. Pro 29:5
I was flattered – You should be a pastor – a teacher – I fell into the net – The Trap. I was ordained – I was in Leadership – And I have seen the dangers of “Titles,” of being known as “pastor/leaderr/reverend.” Spiritual abuse for both the “leader” and those “being led.”
I’m not new to “ministering healing” to those who have been “Spiritually Abused” by “Today’s Religious System” – Both – Pastors in Pulpits – and – People in Pews.
Folks who have been *burnt,** burnt out,** kicked out,* and *crawled out* of “Today’s Abusive Religious System.”
With it’s leaders, submission to spiritual authority, Tithes and offerings, and other unbiblical “heavy weights” put on folks shoulders.
I also spend a fair amount of time with pastor/elder/overseers, “so called “Church Leaders,” who can’t do it anymore. Trying to run the show and please so many masters. Trying to please the denominational leaders. Please the congregation, Please the congregations leaders, Their own family, and of course Jesus.
And Jesus, is often relegated to last place. Hmmm?
Peaching every week… and it better be good, being the CEO, the team leader, counseling, marrying, burying, smiley face. No time for the family – etc. etc.
Statistics say 1600 pastors a month are forced out – that’s 19,000 a year.
That’s a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.
80% say pastoral ministries has negatively affected their families.
80% of spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
77% sat they do NOT have a good marriage.
70% suffer depression – burn out…
You have NO idea – NO clue – I’m loveing them – I’m warning them – Danger Danger.
And your concerned about me NOT giving these guys credit???
Wake up Norris – Families are in pain. Lots and Lots of Pain.
What? – Give credit? – For destroying their families??? For destroying themselves??? – By believeing the lie – I’m called to be a pastor/leader/overseer – Have to tuff it out. – Even when my family suffers – When no one in the Bible was called to be a pastor/leader/reverend – leading a church?
Give credit? When they teach by example it’s okay to take a “Title” – NOT in the Bible?
And now others believe the lie – That they are called – and their families suffer?
Give credit? For taking a “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend – NOT in the Bible?
Give credit? Why? They take a position with tuff qualifications – they do NOT meet?
Now have to go about living the Lie – trying to convince folks they meet them…
1 – Must be Blameless. 2 – Holy. 3 – Just. 4 – Manage well the home. – 80% Do NOT…
NOT interested in giving credit – Interested in giving “Truth” that sets them FREE.
Almost every time I meet someone who has suffered “Spiritual Abuse.”
Pastor In Pulpit – Or – People in Pew. I ask some questions…
I ask – In the Bible – How many people are called pastor?
When they answer “Truthfully” – None – the healing begins.
In the Bible – Did anyone – Go to Church – Join a Church – Give money to a Church?
When they answer “Truthfully” – None – the healing begins.
When I ask the Pastor/Elder/Overseers who are Hurting – Left in failure – Quit
Do you meet these tuff qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
When they answer “Truthfully” – No, I do NOT – the healing begins.
The “Truth” shall set you FREE…
Hello Amos, I have read your last couple of posts. Where are you quoting these numbers from, what percentage is it in the overall perspective. who qualified these people. is this all of christianity? Amos do you believe people are being saved in these churches today? Do you believe that people are being healed today in these churches? Do you believe that the Spirit is working through men today in accomplishing God’s will? What part does man play in reaching God’s will for today?
Amos you say that i have limited God when I placed a number on Him. God say He is one (Deu 6:4)Now the word one in the hebrew is define as “unity” unification of what? The word Lord in the hebrew is elohim, that is the plural of El. In the hebrew its three or more. (I know I’m preaching to choir). Paul shouts in (1Tim 2:5) that He’s one God, with one mediator, Jesus Christ. In Titus 1:4 (and a host of other places) It say God AND the Lord Jesus Christ. Jo 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, AND the Word was with God, AND the Word was God,” And stipulate another. You have mixed my words when you say that I have limited God from being innumerable. God is innumerable in His attributes, character and action. He is one God displayed in three personality. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Now Amos I agree with your assessment of the scripture, however it doesn’t stop there. You must examine all other scripture which bears further light. For example, You say that God is to be man teachers. That’s correct.. Yet God has shown us the formula He has chosen to accomplish this feat. He will empower man by living in Him to teach others (Jo16:7&13). That’s why paul told Timothy to teach others so that they may teach others.(1tim 2:2), Jesus said to the disciples, God ye therefore and teach all nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt 28:19-20). In Acts 18 there was a man named Apollos who knew the scripture up to a point, yet he hadn’t been expose to the whole gospel. Then came Aquila and Priscilla who expounded on that way more perfectly. As I said before all scriptures must be in harmony. There are no contradiction in the bible, none. All things can and will be explained. Always yours in Christ, Bro. Lee
David,
My previous post (April 21, 10:40 AM), plus my observations concerning the significance of Jesus’ Gethsemane prayers (April 20, 10:22 PM), are, I think, the main substance of my views concerning the Gethsemane accounts. This post will fill in some empty corners.
When I read the accounts of the Last Supper through the Crucifixion, I find only two occasions on which Jesus exhibits the kind of distress from which we might conclude that He is reacting to His separation from the Father. There is Gethsemane, and there is the moment when He cried out at being forsaken by the Father. I have previously reviewed how Jesus’ recital of the opening words of Psalm 22, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” may be construed as evidence that He had been forsaken at some earlier point in time. The period of time between Gethsemane and Jesus’ bodily death was relatively short, maybe on the order of 15 to 18 hours; I am not aware that we are told at what time of night Gethsemane occurred. From the accounts we have, Jesus, though abused and tortured, exhibited only aplomb during the entire time between Gethsemane and the moment he cried out in distress at being forsaken by the Father. Again, other than on the Cross, Gethsemane is the only account we have of Jesus’ being distressed, and this to the point of death and the sweating of blood. I submit that all of this points to Gethsemane as the place and time when Jesus was made to be sin for us, resulting in His spiritual death, which was His separation from the Father.
I wonder if the sending of an angel to strengthen Jesus might be evidence of his being separated from the Father at that point in time. If Jesus was still in the presence of the Father, why would He need to an angel to strengthen Him? The other time Jesus was strengthened by angels was following the Temptation. Matthew 4:11. My understanding is that Jesus endured and overcame the Temptation in, and only in, His humanity. Otherwise, how could it be said that he was “in every respect has been tempted as we are.” Hebrews 4:15. So, perhaps God sent angels when Jesus did not, and could not, have access to His Father. There is much in this paragraph that can legitimately be questioned, though I hope my observations here may be worth pondering.
Then there is this verse: For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40, ESV) This verse perplexes me. It is easy enough to see how Jesus can be said to have been three days in the heart of the earth—Friday afternoon of the Crucifixion, all day Saturday, and early Sunday morning of the Resurrection. This, however, spans only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night. While other arguments have been made, the conundrum seems to me to be solved if Jesus’ separation from the father—that is, his spiritual death—took place the night before the Crucifixion, in Gethsemane.
This, I think, completes my observations. I dare not present my views as authoritative. Your views concerning the significance of Jesus’ Gethsemane prayers, for example, are certainly as worthy of consideration as anything I have had to say. It may be that Jesus’ Gethsemane prayers are an example of, as it were, one of multiple round puzzle piece that you and I would each seek to place in different parts of the puzzle, each of us thereby hoping to contribute to the formation of a coherent whole.
Finally, let me leave you with one puzzle piece that, in a sense, blurs all that I have said on these matters. If KJV is correct in following of the word order of the Greek (as opposed to the recent translations’ theologized re-ordering of the Greek) Jesus is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8. It just may be that, no matter when Jesus was forsaken by the Father vis à vis the Passion events, the God’s-point-of-view reality has it locus completely outside of time.
Norris
You ask…
“Where are you quoting these numbers from,”
From ministries helping hurting pastors and their families – There are lots of them.
Here is info from just two Ministries for hurting pastors. – There are lots of them.
Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers, for the Pastor/Leader/Reverends and their families who take a “Title/Position” – NOT found in the Bible.
—————–
This is from – The Francis A. Schaeffer Institute – Into Thy Word.
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
They say… “pastors are in a dangerous occupation! We are perhaps the single most stressful and frustrating working profession, more than medical doctors, lawyers, politicians…”
* 80% of pastors feel unqualified and discouraged in their role as pastor.
* 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
* 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
* 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
* 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go – including secular work.
* 50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
* Fifteen hundred (1,500) pastors leave the ministry each month
….due to moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches.
This is serious business – Yes?
These folks are supposed to be running the show. And their family lives are a mess.
And – they do NOT qualify if they do NOT “Manage Well” their family. 1 Tim 3:4-5.
And their treasured “Title/Position” that they paid $ for, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned.”
Is quite hard to find in the Bible.
Pastoral Care. Inc.
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
90% feel they are inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
80% of pastors’ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
…….. of what the church has done to their parents.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
50% of pastors feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could.
#1 reason pastors leave the ministry — Church people are not willing to go
…… the same direction and goal of the pastor.
——————
These Ministries are trying to help hurting pastors to stay in this unbiblical position.
My recommendation is – If you do NOT qualify as – pastor/elder/overseer…
Remove yourself – Be a good example to the flock – And go do something else.
If you’ve taken a “Title/Position” – NOT in The Bible – pastor/leader/reveremnd…
Remove yourself – Be a good example to the flock – And go do something else.
And – Become one of “His Disciples.” Become a “Servant.”
Norris
You write…
“Amos do you believe people are being saved in these churches today?”
Hmmm? In the bible- Can you name anyone who was saved – “in these churches?”
First – These are NOT the Church in the Bible. The Ekklesia, The Body of Christ. They are 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS calls church.
Maybe… Some YES and Some NO – God’s ways are beyond finding out. Limitless.
It’s amazing to me that God saves people in a Jehovahs Witness Churchs, In the Roman Catholic Churchs, In a Barnes & Nobles book store. On a basketball court. In Patriarchial Churches, in these Reformed Ultra Authoritarian Churches. In Neo-Calvinista Churches – ALL these Churchs – that Exercise Authority like the gentiles – and Lord it over God’s heritage. Both Big NO, NO’s in the Bible.
Seems God can save folks anywhere at any time.
Do you believe that God’s Sheep are being “Spiritually Abused” in these churches?
When they “Exercise Authority” like the gentiles? Lord it over God’s heritage?
What if there is a “Hero Fireman” living on your block – He Saved many, many, Lives.
And he is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And you know about it.
Do you call him Hero? – Or, Heinous? – What are you required by LAW to do?
When you see abusive churches – err – Corporations – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
When you see abusive pastors – “Church Leaders” – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
Do you call them “Heros of the Faith? Or, Do you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
How many do they have to Abuse – before you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
Do you – Warn His Sheep? Protect His Sheep? Care for His Sheep?
Or, Do you Protect, and Defend, the “The Abusive Religious System?”
And, Do you Protect, and Defend, The Abusive – pastor/leader/reverend?
Do you believe people are being saved in Barnes & Nobles today? And healed?
With NO pastor/leader/reverends present? – NO collection plates? – NO programs?
Just “US” little sheepies? Just one little lost sheepie feeding another lost sheepie?
Hmmm??? Saved???
John 10:9 – I am the door: “by me” if any man enter in, he shall be saved…
John 3:17 – For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world “through Him” (Jesus) might be saved.
Me-thinks it’s Jesus that does the saving – How ever He chooses…
Norris
You ask…
“Where are you quoting these numbers from,”
From ministries helping hurting pastors and their families – There are lots of them.
Here is info from just two Ministries for hurting pastors. – There are lots of them.
Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers, for the Pastor/Leader/Reverends and their families who take a “Title/Position” – NOT found in the Bible.
—————–
This is from – The Francis A. Schaeffer Institute – Into Thy Word.
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
They say… “pastors are in a dangerous occupation! We are perhaps the single most stressful and frustrating working profession, more than medical doctors, lawyers, politicians…”
* 80% of pastors feel unqualified and discouraged in their role as pastor.
* 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
* 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
* 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
* 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go – including secular work.
* 50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
* Fifteen hundred (1,500) pastors leave the ministry each month
….due to moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches.
Norris
This is serious business – Yes?
These folks are supposed to be running the show. And their family lives are a mess.
And – they do NOT qualify if they do NOT “Manage Well” their family. 1 Tim 3:4-5.
And their treasured “Title/Position” that they paid $ for, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned.”
Is quite hard to find in the Bible.
Pastoral Care. Inc.
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
90% feel they are inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
80% of pastors’ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
…….. of what the church has done to their parents.
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
50% of pastors feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could.
#1 reason pastors leave the ministry — Church people are not willing to go
…… the same direction and goal of the pastor.
——————
These Ministries are trying to help hurting pastors to stay in this unbiblical position.
My recommendation is – If you do NOT qualify as – pastor/elder/overseer…
Remove yourself – Be a good example to the flock – And go do something else.
If you’ve taken a “Title/Position” – NOT in The Bible – pastor/leader/reveremnd…
Remove yourself – Be a good example to the flock – And go do something else.
And – Become one of His Disciples. Become a “Servant.”
Norris
You write…
“Amos you say that i have limited God when I placed a number on Him.”
NOPE – I’ve asked you before – Please, do NOT put words in my mouth.
But – Maybe I did say that…
Can you show me where I said, you, Norris, have limited God?
Hello Amos, thank you for showing me where you received this information, You still left some things unanswered. (Deu 6:4) the word “one” in Deu 6:4, with the word “Lord”.
When we are in dialect together, I assume that all of the conversation is directed at me and the responses are too. So with that being said, since I believe (according to what man teaches) in the trinity or the concept of one of the version stipulated by you.
BUT – Once we say “The Trinity” – Along comes a host of other “Questionable Stuff” NOT in the Bible – To Explain “The Trinity” – Which is NOT in the Bible.
Sounds like you think it’s okay to use “The Trinity”- It’s okay to ADD to God’s Words.
If Norris is saying – “I believe in “The Trinity.” – I ask – “Which One?” Which Trinity?
The Trinity with Heirarchy? – Or The Trinity with “NO Heirarchy” in the God head?”
The Trinity with The Father is NOT the Son? – Or, The Son is The Everlasting Father?
The Trinity with 3 distinct persons – Or, The Father, The Word, The Holy Spirit – ONE?
And I think we can agree – God is “Infinite.” Yes?
Psalm 147:5 – Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is “infinite.
Here’s the place I believe where you said I put a number on God.
The Trinity” – As invented by man…
“Numbers God” – Decided by man to be – Three…
And God is NO longer – “Innumerable.”
“The Trinity” – As invented by man…
*Limits God* – to Three.
My response:
You have mixed my words when you say that I have limited God from being innumerable. God is innumerable in His attributes, character and action. He is one God displayed in three personality. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Amos as I have stipulated before. You MUST allow all scripture to be interpret in context.
Go ye therefore and teach all nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt 28:19-20) We see God is commanding men what to say. That is how He is teaching today through man.
Always yours in Christ Bro. Lee
Norris
Please give me “Your” answer for this @ APRIL 24, 2013 @ 9:22 AM…
What do you call the Hero Fireman who saves many?
And is “sexually abusing” only “one child?”
—————–
Do you believe that God’s Sheep are being “Spiritually Abused” in these churches?
These 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS call church?
When they “Exercise Authority” like the gentiles? Lord it over God’s heritage?
What if there is a “Hero Fireman” living on your block – He Saved many, many, Lives.
And he is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And you know about it.
Do you call him Hero? – Or, Heinous? – What are you required by LAW to do?
After all – He is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And saving many?
When you see abusive churches – err – Corporations – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
When you see abusive pastors – “Church Leaders” – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
Do you call them “Heros of the Faith? Or, Do you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
How many do they have to Abuse – before you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
After all – He is only “spiritually abusing” one child of God – And seeing many saved?
Do you – Norris – Warn His Sheep? Protect His Sheep? Care for His Sheep?
Or, Do you, Norris, Protect, and Defend, the “The Abusive Religious System?”
And, Do you Protect, and Defend, The Abusive – pastor/leader/reverend?
Do you believe people are being saved in Barnes & Nobles today? And healed?
With NO pastor/leader/reverends present? – NO collection plates? – NO programs?
Just “US” little sheepies? Just one little lost sheepie feeding another lost sheepie?
Hmmm??? Saved???
John 10:9 – I am the door: “by me” if any man enter in, he shall be saved…
John 3:17 – For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world “through Him” (Jesus) might be saved.
Me-thinks it’s Jesus that does the saving – How ever He chooses…
Hello Amos, I will come back later and respond to your last post today. Today is my birthday, haven’t had one of these with my family in seventeen years. So I’m going to party like it’s 1999. May God continue to bless you and yours through out this day. Bro. Lee in-Christ.
Happy Big Fiftieth to you Norris Lee—I pray God’s richest blessings for you and your family!
Gary, forgive me. I have a few thoughts for you, however, it may not be until Friday or this weekend again before I’m afforded time to respond.
David,
I’ll be looking forward to hearing from you, but on your time for sure. In fact, don’t feel obligated to even read everything I’ve put out there. I got started, didn’t want to quit, and just kept going. And going.
Norris,
I hope you were celebrated & loved on your birthday. Blessings to you. How glorious to share this day with love ones after 17 years… Happy Birthday to you…
Hello Amos, You ask what would I called this person? I would call the police. No doubt there’s no excuse for this type of behavior. Would I see it through (no doubt). However my involvement would stop there until I here the final adjudication from the authorities. Allegations are just that until they are proven in a court of law. It has always been innocent until proven guilty. That’s even in the bible. A man had always been given a chance to prove his innocents also there would have to be more than one witness. To slander someones name across the internet without letting him have his day in court is SLANDER. Now if this fireman was proven not guilty, the slander he received would no doubt kill his reputation as a fireman, however if he is found guilty he will receive his just due. The order has been established through out the United States, innocent until proven guilty. Remember the Ramsey in Colorado, when Jon Benet had died and they were accused of the killing. Only later it was found to be not true. (oops) However they went about with the stigma of maybe they did or maybe they didn’t. Even when it seemed the evidence was over whelming, some how they were cleared. In the case of the fireman it could have been his twin brother. ( you forgot to mention him). (smile) We have to be patience and wait on Him. Love your bro. in-Christ.
Hello Monax and Gail, Thank you for your well wishes. I have had a great day, God is Good! I wish I had another birthday tomorrow. Well, I will continue to pray and ask God to continue to reveal His plan and purpose. In Christ name amen.
Happy Birthday Brother Norris
Happy birthday, Norris. Sounds like you had a good one!
Good morning Norris. I hope yesterday was your best birthday ever. 50 years old? You are still young.
Norris
Wow – Look at all the love being shown to you.
And I hope you had a good day as well.
Norris
Now – Am I imagining things – Did I NOT explain myself properly – Again.
Or, did you skillfully avoid the questions? About these churches who Abuse “ONE?”
And change the subject to “Slander” and to the people who “Slander?”
Good answer about the Hero Fireman – And kinda like “Innocent until proven guilty”
But – in this situation I added – “And you know about it.”
“And he is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And you know about it.”
So, you know it’s true – It is NO longer a question of – “Innocent until proven guilty” – It is NOT an issue of “Slander.” I asked – “Do you call him Hero? – Or, Heinous?”
But – you skillfully go off into a story, explanation, about “Slander.” You change the subject from “God’s people” being “Spiritually Abused” in todays churches – And warning other believers about the Abuse – to “Slander.”
APRIL 6, 2013 @ 2:11 PM –
“I don’t sling mud nor will I use information given to me to “slander” someone..”
APRIL 25, 2013 @ 8:03 PM – And you use it again, Now – Why?
“To “slander” someones name across the internet
without letting him have his day in court is SLANDER.”
Now, you might NOT realize it – BUT – Calling it “Slander” is a favorite tactic, scheme, dodge, subterfuge, used by “Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority” to change the subjest. To change the subject to “Slander” and the person revealing the truth about these pastors who are “Spiritually Abusing” Gods sheep. These “Pastors who Abuse” want to “Silence” people who know the truth and are warning folks. So, they call what people are saying – “Slander.” And the subject is changed.
It’s NOT about “Slander” at all – Is it? – It’s about “Silencing” the wounded Sheep…
Your statement about “Slander” is NOT refering to the Fireman. Is it?
And – IMO – you use the word “Slander” here trying to “Silence” folks.
And skilfully avoid the questions I asked…
“Do you believe that God’s Sheep are being “Spiritually Abused” in these churches?
These 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS call church?
When they “Exercise Authority” like the gentiles? Lord it over God’s heritage?
Norris
Can you please answer these questions about…
God’s Sheep being “Spiritually Abused” in these churches. Todays churches.
Run by pastor/leader/reverends who have taken a “title/Position” NOT in the Bible.
Do you believe that God’s Sheep are being “Spiritually Abused” in these churches?
These 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations, the IRS call church?
When they “Exercise Authority” like the gentiles? Lord it over God’s heritage?
What if there is a “Hero Fireman” living on your block – He Saved many, many, Lives.
And he is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And you know about it.
Do you call him Hero? – Or, Heinous? – What are you required by LAW to do?
After all – He is only “sexually abusing” one child on the Block – And saving many?
When you see abusive churches – err – Corporations – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
When you see abusive pastors – “Church Leaders” – Abuse just one of His Sheep???
Do you call them “Heros of the Faith? Or, Do you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
How many do they have to Abuse – before you call them “Pastors who Abuse?”
After all – He is only “spiritually abusing” one child of God – And seeing many saved?
Do you – Norris – Warn His Sheep? Protect His Sheep? Care for His Sheep?
Or, Do you, Norris, Protect, and Defend, the “The Abusive Religious System?”
And, Do you Protect, and Defend, The Abusive – pastor/leader/reverend?
Do you believe people are being saved in Barnes & Nobles today? And healed?
With NO pastor/leader/reverends present? – NO collection plates? – NO programs?
Just “US” little sheepies? Just one little lost sheepie feeding another lost sheepie?
Hmmm??? Saved???
John 10:9 – I am the door: “by me” if any man enter in, he shall be saved…
John 3:17 – For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world “through Him” (Jesus) might be saved.
Me-thinks it’s Jesus that does the saving – How ever He chooses…
Hello Amos and God bless you this morning. I have read your last post, I will answer best to my abilities. Now as you state I knew that this was occurring, what would I do then. I would be a witness in the court of law against that person.
You ask are sheep being spiritually abused in the church today? Man, that’s a tough one. I would say a resounding yes, when the Pastor/Elder is a false teacher. God gave us plenty warnings about a person who would mistreat the flock of God. (Lu 12:46-47, Acts 20:29-30, 1Cor 11:13-15, Tit 1:16) I could go on and on. Amos we must show the flip side to that also, will sheep lie on the Pastor to defame him for whatever reason? Scripture covers that also. (2Tiim 3:8-9, Acts5:3-5, 3Jo:9-10)
and so on.
Are people being saved in Barns & Nobles and being healed today. Yes they are. However it’s through sheep who are being raised in and through the church. You can’t win souls if you don’t know the scriptures.(2Tim3:15-16) Imagine the Apostle Phillip in the 8th chapter of Acts when he met the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian didn’t know the scriptures, he needed someone to show him. Now imagine any saint sharing with him not knowing how to be saved and grow in Christ. It would be like the blind leading the blind. (Lu 6:39) The bible teaches the concept of the church through scriptures. (Eph 4:16) When we love one another we will grow as a church.
Once again I agree with you that it is Jesus who saves. However because of other scripture which sheds more light on the issue we can clearly see how he wants us to go about it. God uses the Holy Spirit to equip men to do His bidding.
Do I warn God sheep to watch out for wolves. Yes
Do I care for the sheep. Yes
Do I protect the sheep
I do not protect the abusive religious system as you call it.
Love Bro. Lee in Christ.
Thank you for all the well wishes from this site. I do count you as my Brothers and Sisters. Love you, love you, love you. (smile)
hello—hello——hello—–hello—–hello——hello—-lo—lo—-lo—lo–lo-lo-lo—o–o–o
Norris you crack me up! :-p
Hello Bro Norris! Good to see your voice. .
Was your son’s hamstring healed enough to run this past weekend in his conference meet? How’d he do? And how are you doing?
David
Hello and good morning, Well David, it didn’t work out for my son, he tore his hamstring up pretty bad. Is out for the season. He is really down and out, so keep him in prayer. I’m okay just trudging along, I must say it’s better than being in prison.(smile) Been studying the word of God and fellowshipping. I have another son who name is Andras keep him in prayer he is out of control right now. Driving his mother crazy. Lost his job, wreck his car and then went on a binge for three days in the rental car. He moved out yesterday. I gave him to the Lord. He doesn’t see his wrong and is in denial big time. Well enough of that. Thank you David for hearing me out.
Hello Tina, love to hear you had a great laugh. Keep up the positive attitude.
Gary W. where are you at. Do I have to send out a A.P.B. for you. I was just about to put my two cents in on your posts.
Earth calling Amos, come in Amos ten-four good buddy.
Love all of you in Christ, Your humble servant in the Lord.
Norris, when you told us about his torn hamstring I assumed he’d be out of commission for awhile. What a terrible disappointment!
How old is Andras? I’ve written his name down to remind me to pray for him later.
Just curious—have you been fellowshipping at Calvary Chapel Visalia? And if so, what’s your feel on the spiritual climate there?
Fyi: I’m facing a pressing project deadline, however I’m taking some time right now to pound out a response to Gary. So I expect to get back to y’all later today with whatever I’ve got—polished or not.
Norris
Ten-Four good buddy??? You’re showing your age…
And mine… 
Sorry to hear about your boys – Sounds like they are both going through tuff times.
And you also… I hurt with you… mercy Lord…
Hello David, my son is 22, about to be 23.
Yes I have, The worship is beautiful, the word is strong and contextual.
The fellowship is complimentary and gracious. I have been accepted as a brother.
So it is my new church home. Yes I’m praying for my Pastors.
Gary,
after reading Norris’ Hello I decided to finally take some time to respond to your rather deep thought-provoking reflections. I read your April 20, 21, and 23 comments probably a dozen times over the last week. . . and appreciate your word of caution and understand we’re dabbling in mere (wondrous) speculation.
As Scripture is silent on so much, our knowledge of these things (this side of eternity) will be partial and incomplete. Scripture tells us as much. Yet as we pursue these mysteries with all our sanctified hearts and minds something happens—at least for me. We begin to perceive mysteries and dimensions of reality we never knew existed. Our faith deepens. Our understanding broadens. There may be no greater joy for me than giving myself over to the pursuit of God’s mysteries and theological conversations like this. And Gary, you’ve helped broaden the bounds of my understanding. Thank you.
Yahweh to Jeremiah: “Call to me and I will answer you. I will tell you great and mysterious things you do not know” (33:3).
. .
Gary writes: I submit that Jesus would not have made petitions that He knew were contrary to the Father’s will. Therefore, the very making of such petition is further evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father. I submit that the making of requests that were contrary to the Father’s will are evidence that, though Jesus prayed, there was no spiritual connection.
and
Why would Jesus say the same thing twice if he knew he was heard the first time?
As I bend your above comment around in my mind this morning (and I only mean for the highest of compliments by saying this) I’m reminded of those little plastic pictures the size of trading cards that animate when turned and effect a shiny stereoscopic depth when viewed from different angles. You know—those lenticular images that are sometimes buried inside boxes of Apple Jacks? I’m especially noticing this time around how your words shine differently when approached from a fresh perspective.
Personally, I find great encouragement knowing that Jesus prayed the same thing thrice. I never saw this as “evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father”—but now you have me considering this as a possibility.
Throughout my entire life I’ve been in the habit of praying the same thing over and over again. Requests for the salvation and/or deliverance of loved ones, for instance. So Jesus’ exact repetition of words to the Father a third time [Matt. 26:44] has given me confidence that my own repeated petitions suggest no lack of faith in the offering. In fact, Jesus’ parable of the persistent widow tells me that I should never give up praying faithfully day and night for such things (as peace and justice) until I have it.
As we know that we can pray the same words over and over again and still know that we’ve been heard—the same must stand for Jesus. (?)
The fact that Jesus had a will of his own also encourages me as I pray and relate to God. Our Lord modeled how it’s perfectly good to express to the Father our own perspectives on things, our own working desires—However, just like Christ prayed so must we. “Father, this is my desire, my personal request, nevertheless, over and above my own will—Your will be done.”
When Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane he did not ultimately ask for anything outside the Father’s will. Again, we can express our personal desires—but must encapsulate them with this faithful understanding—“not as I will, but as you will.”
Gary, I think the clinching verse (as you point us to) that provides the best evidence toward a separation in Gethsemane is Matthew 26:38—“My soul is very sorrowful, even to death.”
I believe you’re right in reading “soul” here as speaking primarily of his bodily life—even though I’d otherwise lean toward a more spiritual reading of the word psuche here. The reason for me agreeing with you on a more bodily meaning is for what we read in Hebrews 5:7—“In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.” This verse, although not referring directly to Gethsemane, has an indirect reference to that moment.
Your April 20, 21 and 23 comments are really really good. I’m still reflecting on them. Yes, it may very well have been in Gethsemane that he began to become sin for us. I wish I had more time today to comment more on your reflections. There’s a lot there. It’s deep. And I’ve only been able to pound out here but a fraction of all of what’s going on in my head.
Norris,,, those years 22, 23—are some of the most difficult years of life. They were for me, as they are for many many others. Difficult years, indeed.
Keeping Andras in my prayers. .
Norris,
I’m still here, and saddened at the report of the hard stuff your sons (and you and their mother) are dealing with. I would not wish to be their age again. It’s all quited difficult for a parent to watch, but we still love. Will be looking forward to reading your two cents worth, and more than that I expect.
David,
Thank you for your encouraging words. You are seeing things that had not occurred to me. Among other things, I’m looking forward to pursuing your observations regarding Hebrews 5:7. Another piece of the puzzle. For myself, I would say that our little exercise has been most rewarding at the intuitive and, therefore, subjective level. I have some sense of having in some small, small way entered into Jesus’s experience. It’s interesting that the thing that is most rewarding, at least to me, is also the thing that is least susceptible of sharing. I suppose that’s how it is with all knowing of the sort that can flow only from relationship.
dropping a few more pieces of the mosaic onto the thread (( some tangentially related to Hebrews 5:7 )) :
I have a local friend who read through some of these comments a week or so ago and in an email to me expressed how he found it hard “to fathom that the Father ever left the Son on the way to the cross” and wondered “if the parallel to Abraham and Isaac would give some insight as we have the father who was asked to sacrifice the son, but the father was with him every step of the way.”
Judaism calls the Gen 22 “binding” of Isaac the Aqedah. Surely it was more terribly heart-breaking for Abraham to actively offer his son as a sacrifice then for Isaac to be passively bound and set upon the wood. (( It may be interesting to note how Abraham laid the “wood” of the burnt offering on Isaac—made him carry the etz, which is our Hebrew word for both “wood” and “tree” . . . the cross of X was called a “tree” in the NT, and in the OT we read, “Cursed is anyone who hangs upon a tree.” X became a curse and sin for us that we might be blessed with becoming the righteousness of God ))
Isaac, as he carried the wood to Mount Moriah, said, “My father! Behold the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” Abraham answered, “God will provide for himself the lamb for burnt offering, my son.”
We know the story: Abraham bound Isaac, and as he raised the knife to slaughter his son the angel of Yahweh called out, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you are a fearer of God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, there was a ram caught in a thicket by his horns so he offered it up to Yahweh instead.
In Abraham’s day there was not this individualistic sense of identity that we now have in the modern west. Abraham’s sense of self would have involved a more corporate appreciation of who he was. So much so that when God directed Father Abraham to sacrifice his son—he was being asked (( in a very real sense )) to sacrifice his very own self. As Abraham’s self was so bound up with Isaac I see a parallel here in the words from 2 Cor 5:19—that “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”
In relation to the Aqedah I’m thinking of the words of Jesus, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt 16:24-25).
There’s a play on the word for “seeing” in Gen 22. Abraham was directed to go to the land of Moriah—to the land of “seeing” or “vision.” After Abraham offered the ram in Isaac’s stead he named the place Yahweh Yireh—“the LORD will provide (see to it).” As it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD he will be seen.”
Who will be seen? And where is Mount Moriah?
In both the Judaic and Xn traditions Mount Moriah is in Jerusalem where Solomon’s temple was built, at the Jebusite threshing floor where the plague was stopped [see 1 Chron 21:15 and 2 Chron 3:1]. Golgotha, btw, may have been one with Mount Moriah before Solomon et al quarried the mountain stone for the building of the city.
A short distance from Mount Moriah and directly east of the temple is the garden of Gethsemane (( Gat-Sh’manim means “oil press” )) located on the Mount of Olives.
Jesus left the earth from there and will make his return there. “On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward” (Zechariah 14:4).
As X hung on the cross we read in Matthew 28 how after three hours of a darkness Christ cried out with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And then with a final loud cry wherein he yielded up his spirit—the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
The rending of the temple curtain signifies the access we now have to the Most Holy One—an access we were denied prior to X dying for our sins. And let us keep in mind that the darkness covering the whole land couldn’t have been a result of an eclipse—for it was a Passover full moon. Strange this darkness! What was that about?
Maybe the splitting of the rocks foreshadows the commencing of the Day of the LORD when Christ will return to the Mount of Olives splitting it open into a wide valley?
You identify much that I had never considered. Good stuff. I’m wondering, do you think Abraham may point to the fact that Jesus was not the only one Who experienced the pain of separation and loss through His death on the Cross. Father God also experienced separation from (dare I say death to?) His Son.
Yes, exactly, Gary. .
As spiritual death is defined as a relational separation then certainly the Father also died a spiritual death at His end that day within time and eternity when Jesus took upon himself the judgment for our sins.
Thank You, Father. Thank You, Jesus. Amen.
. ;
{{{ appreciated the conversation }}}
David
Monax, how could the Father experience Spiritual death when He is eternal? If at any point he experience Spiritual death he ceased to be eternal. Something to ponder. The son died as a man, not as God or else the scripture in jo 10:17 would not be true. Jesus raised Himself up because He never ceased to be God. Hallelujah for that one yours sincerely. Bro. Lee
I also missed communicating with ya’ll
welcome back to the fold
Bro. Lee
Bro. Lee,
In our conversation here I’ve defined spiritual death as “relational separation.”
Both God the Father and God the Son are eternal persons. How does a momentary separation in the Godhead make the Father or the Son cease from being eternal?
And Jesus when He died on the cross was both fully God and fully man. At no point did the Son ever cease from being God.
(( am i reading a contradiction in your comment? ))
David no your not reading a contradiction in my comment. I stated that at no time can God be killed by anyone. Man nor anything else. When Christ Died He died as the perfect sacrifice for man. The perfect man. That is what the Levitical priesthood was about. Jesus is the Eternal God at no time can He die, or He would cease to be the Eternal God. Jesus fully man was separated from God not Jesus fully God ever was separated from God the Father nor God the Holy Ghost. That is what eternal means always existence. That is the reason He states I will raise myself again, because the Father has given Him the power to raise His self again. Psalms 22 Is Jesus the man crying about separation. Just as in Jo 10:29 when Jesus states that the Father is greater than all. Once again He’s speaking as a Man. Fully Man and fully God.
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Fwiw, Bro. Lee, what you seem to be saying is not only considered unorthodox but heretical.
You write, “The son died as a man, not as God. . . . Jesus raised Himself up because He never ceased to be God.”
It’s contradictory to say that Jesus died not as God, yet never ceased to be God.
The eternal, ontological, spiritual, bodily and interpersonal nature of the Godhead is a deep deep mystery. And in no way can we assert a logic (as it seems you are doing) that contradicts his own Word on Himself in Scripture.
One can be eternal and still die—still experience a separation between persons (i.e., spiritual death) and experience a separation of spirit from body (i.e., physical death)—as our Lord Jesus both experienced.
At no time was Jesus ever not God—even when dying upon the cross. To even suggest as much is considered heresy.
i will respond, however it will take a little time. Love you David, sincerely Bro. Lee